Why is it that women deliberately choose "bad boys" yet.....

[Legacy]

always complain about relationships not working.. NOPE! EVIDENCE!!!!

Bad guys really do get the most girls

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/mg19826614.100-bad-guys-get-the-most-girls.html

18 June 2008
NewScientist.com news service
Mason Inman

NICE guys knew it, now two studies have confirmed it: bad boys get the most girls. The finding may help explain why a nasty suite of antisocial personality traits known as the "dark triad" persists in the human population, despite their potentially grave cultural costs.

The traits are the self-obsession of narcissism; the impulsive, thrill-seeking and callous behaviour of psychopaths; and the deceitful and exploitative nature of Machiavellianism. At their extreme, these traits would be highly detrimental for life in traditional human societies. People with these personalities risk being shunned by others and shut out of relationships, leaving them without a mate, hungry and vulnerable to predators.

But being just slightly evil could have an upside: a prolific sex life, says Peter Jonason at New Mexico State University in Las Cruces. "We have some evidence that the three traits are really the same thing and may represent a successful evolutionary strategy."

Jonason and his colleagues subjected 200 college students to personality tests designed to rank them for each of the dark triad traits. They also asked about their attitudes to sexual relationships and about their sex lives, including how many partners they'd had and whether they were seeking brief affairs.

The study found that those who scored higher on the dark triad personality traits tended to have more partners and more desire for short-term relationships, Jonason reported at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society meeting in Kyoto, Japan, earlier this month. But the correlation only held in males.

James Bond epitomises this set of traits, Jonason says. "He's clearly disagreeable, very extroverted and likes trying new things - killing people, new women." Just as Bond seduces woman after woman, people with dark triad traits may be more successful with a quantity-style or shotgun approach to reproduction, even if they don't stick around for parenting. "The strategy seems to have worked. We still have these traits," Jonason says.

This observation seems to hold across cultures. David Schmitt of Bradley University in Peoria, Illinois, presented preliminary results at the same meeting from a survey of more than 35,000 people in 57 countries. He found a similar link between the dark triad and reproductive success in men. "It is universal across cultures for high dark triad scorers to be more active in short-term mating," Schmitt says. "They are more likely to try and poach other people's partners for a brief affair."

Barbara Oakley of Oakland University in Rochester, Michigan, says that the studies "verify something a lot of people have conjectured about".

Christopher von Rueden of the University of California at Santa Barbara says that the studies are important because they confirm that personality variation has direct fitness consequences.

"They still have to explain why it hasn't spread to everyone," says Matthew Keller of the University of Colorado in Boulder. "There must be some cost of the traits." One possibility, both Keller and Jonason suggest, is that the strategy is most successful when dark triad personalities are rare. Otherwise, others would become more wary and guarded.

From issue 2661 of New Scientist magazine, 18 June 2008, page 12

[cool breeze]

Women primarily choose bad boys because:

(1) This society glorifies them. Look at James Bond, for example.
(2) Bad boys actually ask women out. Nice guys, more often than not are afraid to lay their cards on the table and try to use the "friends first" strategy with women. Newsflash, women actually want men to be..well, MEN..

lol..I actually have the secret to disarming the Bad Boys, but I wanna be a millionaire someday and those nerds are my ticket to fancy high-rise penthouse living like George and Weezie!! 

[Scorpio]

Funny, I was reading this article at work today.  IMHO, the bad boys can have all the women they want. In fact, I'll go so far as to say I hope they get as many women as they can possibly handle because any woman that goes after these types deserves what she gets.  I don't understand why a "good guy" would pursue a woman who is such a poor judge of character in the first place. That can't make for a healthy long-term relationship.


[rant]
By the way can we please dispense with the "good guy" is synonymous with nerdy wimp line of thinking? A spineless yes-man is no more a "good guy" than a domineering tyrant. One more thing, quantity does NOT equal quality. The "good guy" wants the woman he can build a future with. The "bad guy" just wants a woman to build an orgasm with.
[/rant]

[cool breeze]

Great post, Scorpio, but those high quality women aren't gonna roll up and approach you romantically..They want you to approach them..In fact, 90% of women want men to do the approaching, so they can then do the accepting or rejecting..lol

A man has to have some game and it's a skill that can be learned..But, hey, some of these cats are too busy trying master every X-Box 360 game known to man to work on their social skills..

[The Shepherd]

I don't think we can discount the effect that biology and socialization still have on modern, so-called feminist women. There is still an appeal that cultures have to the swashbuckling, smooth, take charge, type A personality, alpha male kind of man. It is promoted in all aspects of media and entertainment. We cannot discount how much of our self-image, perception of others, and our "subjective" tastes and desires are shaped by our culture.

Keeping in mind that this is a very sheepish culture, a culture where "free thinking" is an extreme rarity, I would say that most of these relationship decisions occur because most women don't really know any better. Or, they don't know enough to combat the subliminal influence that drives them.

[Scorpio]

Great post, Scorpio, but those high quality women aren't gonna roll up and approach you romantically..They want you to approach them..In fact, 90% of women want men to do the approaching, so they can then do the accepting or rejecting..lol

I agree 100% with you. This also strengthens my argument that women have no right to complain about the bad men that they chose.  It amazes me that people put more thought into picking out clothes and buying cars than they do in mate selection, but I digress.

On a side note, I used to know a few women who enjoyed rejecting men but then complain about why no "good man" would approach them. Go figure.

A man has to have some game and it's a skill that can be learned..But, hey, some of these cats are too busy trying master every X-Box 360 game known to man to work on their social skills..

That's what I call a prime example of self-selection. The game master doesn't really need a woman  because he obviously derives more pleasure and has more focus on gaming than girls. Even if he somehow manage to acquire a mate, unless she is as hardcore into games as he is, she's gonna leave him anyway.

[Scorpio]

I don't think we can discount the effect that biology and socialization still have on modern, so-called feminist women.

[sarcasm] Wait, that's not true! According to some feminists on this very site, they are far more evolved than we are. They would never fall prey to the baser instincts that plague men [/sarcasm]

Keeping in mind that this is a very sheepish culture, a culture where "free thinking" is an extreme rarity, I would say that most of these relationship decisions occur because most women don't really know any better. Or, they don't know enough to combat the subliminal influence that drives them.

You have written great truth here. Although I would add that this society is also short on personal responsibility as well. It's as if all our faults can be pawned off on to other people. It's NEVER our fault, our screw-up. Getting back to topic, I still have no sympathy for women with PhD's who come from two parent homes and who are surrounded by men of character choosing losers for mates (yes I have witnessed this on more than one occasion).

[Legacy]

*NOTICEABLE SILENCE*

[mochagirl1]

I was reading a similar article the other day.  I've come to the conclusion that only immature women with self-esteem issues choose bad boys.  A real woman loves a man for his heart, his soul and his character.  Most women (I use this term loosely) who love bad boys only end up hurt, abandoned and used.  These women are little girls parading around as women.  They like drama and misery.  They in no way reflect the progressive attitudes of any true woman. 

I was never in love with the jock, the pretty boy or the thug.  My first crush was a science geek who I could converse with endlessly about phylums and other biological premises.  My first love was considered a "square", no one wanted to talk him, etc.  But he was a great person and I loved him.  Some of my worst dates were with bodybuilders and guys with little or no personality but great looks.  I married my husband because he's intelligent, funny and witty, a "nice" guy by all standards.  So women who choose these men are not a loss to a real man.  If anything, they are losing out on a great guy.  I have seen women who want a man who is a "roughneck" or "thugged out" and pass up a guy with education, a great job and values.  I definitely don't condone that kind of thinking.  But then again, that leaves the field wide open for a real woman to find that man and have a happy and fulfilling relationship. 

[Legacy]

Great post, Scorpio, but those high quality women aren't gonna roll up and approach you romantically..They want you to approach them..In fact, 90% of women want men to do the approaching, so they can then do the accepting or rejecting..lol

Exactly, yet they tend to desire relationships more & have more demands.. I keep telling women that closed mouths don't get fed. Go after what you want. Sometimes it won't work out but you only have to get it right once.

I don't think we can discount the effect that biology and socialization still have on modern, so-called feminist women. There is still an appeal that cultures have to the swashbuckling, smooth, take charge, type A personality, alpha male kind of man. It is promoted in all aspects of media and entertainment. We cannot discount how much of our self-image, perception of others, and our "subjective" tastes and desires are shaped by our culture.

Keeping in mind that this is a very sheepish culture, a culture where "free thinking" is an extreme rarity, I would say that most of these relationship decisions occur because most women don't really know any better. Or, they don't know enough to combat the subliminal influence that drives them.

Ok, so does that mean men get a pass for always chasing pusci? We get bombarded with sexual imagery @ every turn in all aspects of media & entertainment. I want an excuse to  justify the desires shaped by our culture too!

If not, NOPE! They be pickin 50 cents over Neil deGrasse Tyson & get mad when they're a baby mama! - LOL

I agree 100% with you. This also strengthens my argument that women have no right to complain about the bad men that they chose.  It amazes me that people put more thought into picking out clothes and buying cars than they do in mate selection, but I digress.

On a side note, I used to know a few women who enjoyed rejecting men but then complain about why no "good man" would approach them. Go figure.

They do choose a lot of bad men. I'll give them a pass for "non obvious" bad men but getting knocked up by the dudes w/ 2 baby mamas you knew about? Dating the dude who you knew to be in & out of jail? Getting engaged to the dude w/ no ambition, work ethic and/or no skills/education?

I'm just sayin...

[Legacy]

*NOTICEABLE SILENCE*

Why won't you talk about it?

[cool breeze]

The bad boys are too busy juggling multiple women to talk, Legacy..

[MsHeartBeat]

The study found that those who scored higher on the dark triad personality traits tended to have more partners and more desire for short-term relationships, Jonason reported at the Human Behavior and Evolution Society meeting in Kyoto, Japan, earlier this month. But the correlation only held in males.

Well, when they do a study outside of a college/university which in itself limits the scope of the testers (all usual White, upper to middle class, similar background, socializing, upbringing, expectations of society that they get what they want, etc.), then these studies might be worth something.  They ain't worth the paper they are written on in my opinion because they are too small and too narrow in scope.

Secondly, of course women would choose an exciting guy over one that sits there and don't SAY or DO nothin!  And that is where the players get over.  They are fun, exciting, quick witted.  They get around and KNOW stuff.  They have myriad experiences and wild stories to tell.  They are intriguing and interesting.  The nice guys are boring.  They sit around playing video games and hanging with their buddies like cool breeze said. 

Women want a man to approach.  Nice guys tend to be fearful and are often lazy and expect women to come up to them.  A woman that wants a STRONG man would never approach.  If a woman has to approach you, you already lost points in her eyes and go down as either not that interested, or scary.  Neither are attractive and get her juices flowing.

Just like men are socialized to think women should look and act a certain way, women are too.  The #1 way we judge you as suitable is if you are manly - which means assertive, know what you want and go after it, not ruffled by the threat of a little rejection (no one ever died from being told no), confident.  Bad boys tend to be Alpha men.  Nice guys are perceived as wimps.  Until either of those two ends of the spectrum can adjust their behavior and come more to the middle (the type of guy women REALLY want), they will both be stuck with certain types of females or with no females and all alone.

Article I wrote on this issue:
Why Nice Guys Suck and Women Don't Want You!
(c) 2008 Deborrah Cooper

[Scorpio]

Excellent post and article Ms. Heartbeat. However, I do have a few questions. (Anyone can chime in on these, btw.)

1.) While I understand the motivation behind the the "wimp" to change, what is the motivation for the "bad boy" to change?
He gets as many women as he wants and as much sex as he wants. If he wanted to he could get a wife and probably openly cheat on her (since he would most likely target a woman who would put up with that) so why would he "move to the middle" under your scenario?

2.) I totally agree on your stance on fear of rejection. A man shouldn't breakdown over a simple "no, not interested." However, what are your thoughts on total emasculation and character assassination?
Nowadays, a lot of females don't simply say "No." They will proceed to totally tear down a man they are not interested in (pointing every imperfection he may or may not have) , spread vicious rumors about him to their female friends/acquaintances and even maintain online databases to to further break his character (dontdatehimgirl.com comes to mind).  Ladies generally get a pass on appearing to be stuck up because they don't want to deal with a guy calling them out of their name if rejected. Can guys get little consideration for being hesitant to approach because they may need a little time to gird themselves against rejection that would make Simon Cowell appear soft?

3.) On a similar note, if ladies know that the exciting, outgoing, assertive guys tend to have "their pick of the litter" so to speak and that they often have obvious character flaws (cheating, lying etc), why complain when they get dogged out?

{Tangent}Maybe I misunderstood, but based on the posts I've seen online and individuals I've talked to offline, the "nice guy argument" usually doesn't revolve around the "bad boy took the girl I want." The actual arguments tend to be a) "She chose Mandingo Jones who is a known womanizer and now she says there's no good men out there. Hello I'm here!" or b) "I tried to date her but she rejected me for Tupac/Scarface/George Bush. Now that she has sexed more guys than days of the year/had 5 kids by four different fathers/sees that I started my own videogame company and now make her yearly salary in one week, she wants to date me. Why should I settle for leftovers?"

Extra Credit question: What's with the videogame hate?  I can't be the only guy who knows happily married couples who are gamer fanatics. (Quick aside, all of my exes loved videogames just as much, if not more than I did. And they were hot  )

[cool breeze]

Being a "nice guy" does not win you any brownie points in the dating game!  Never has, never will.  You win at dating when you give the opposite sex what they want.

The quote above is from Ms Heartbeat's article on why nice guys often get left out in the cold..I tell all the nice guys I know, be yourself and go after what you want..Nine times out of ten, the majority of women will respond positively to you when you approach them..Those that don't? Well,  they just missed out on a golden opportunity--NEXT!! Don't sit around wondering about what could have been..Move on..

Is it okay to analyze your game and see what you can do to improve your social skills? Sure it is..Is it okay to remember each and every woman that rejected you? Hell to the no!! She doesn't want you? NEXT!!

There are plenty of women who will be thrilled that you approached them..Fear is for lesser men..How is being afraid of women attractive? Listen, I've had my share of ego deflating encounters with women..We all have..The nice guys aren't the only ones to get shot down..

There's this one woman who still is crowing like some deranged rooster about how she set me straight when I tried to ask her out a few years ago..After all, she comes from the upper levels of black society and I'm just a nobody in her eyes..You wanna talk about feeling an icy chill? Man she read, wrote and erased me and it was very public to boot..I would have slinked back to my seat(we were at a  NAACP banquet) but I had to go up to the podium and give out an award..Now, maybe my timing was off--but I hadn't seen her in months and I was determined not to let the opportunity slip..Humbling and humiliating? Hell yeah..BUT..

Do you know how many dates I've been on since then? I met and married a wonderful woman, the love of my life after getting my head handed to me that night at that banquet..In short, I picked myself up and got back on the the horse..I didn't let her rejection destroy me..By the way, if she had chosen me, in all likelihood I would have tried to wife her up..But alas, it wasn't in the cards..

Last I heard, she was seeing some married well to do brother from Charlotte..So, she's the type of woman that would rather be on the outside looking in--the proverbial other woman, instead of being in a healthy loving, monogamous relationship..So you see, I dodged a bullet..Her rejection actually was helpful in the long run for me..She weeded herself out of my dating pool and as a result, I ended up meeting and marrying my wife Nita..

But she still has the last laugh right? After all, she got to reject me and embarrass me publicly and I'm sure there are some folks who will never forget that night..Hey, I'm glad they thought it was amusing and looking back, it is kinda funny..But they say living well is the best revenge..And every time I see my wife in that little black cocktail dress or wearing my Dr. J jersey with boxer shorts, I thank the Lord I got rejected that night at the banquet.. But I digress..

There are plenty of women who are sending subtle cues that they want you to come over and approach them..Be the man..The reason the bad boys get so much play is that normally they're the only ones with the guts to approach women..Meanwhile, the nice guys sits on the sidelines telling anyone within earshot what a wonderful person he is..

The majority of women aren't going to approach you..Sure, it happens from time to time and I ain't gonna lie it feels nice..but those times are few and far between..