Why is it that women deliberately choose "bad boys" yet.....

[da6cents]

Now that we've answered why these women keep choosing bad boys perhaps we can talk about why they then turn around and RAISE one as well........

[MsHeartBeat]

1.) While I understand the motivation behind the the "wimp" to change, what is the motivation for the "bad boy" to change?
He gets as many women as he wants and as much sex as he wants. If he wanted to he could get a wife and probably openly cheat on her (since he would most likely target a woman who would put up with that) so why would he "move to the middle" under your scenario?

He would not have to Scorpio if he was satisfied with his life exactly as it was, for the rest of his years.  However, what I've noticed is that even players get tired of playing.  And going from woman to woman, always having shallow, superficial relationships gets boring and unsatisfying for everyone except the emotionally or mentally damaged.  A damaged man going through the motions of a committed relationship is the cheating husband you describe.  When a man really "grows up" he wants to be there for his woman, for his children, for his family, for his community, and he tends to be somewhat embarrassed about how he lived his life before he saw the light.  Run into hundreds of those types of men, of all races.  But those that never really change ... they die alone and lonely.  Who in their right mind wants to be like that in their sunset years?

2.) I totally agree on your stance on fear of rejection. A man shouldn't breakdown over a simple "no, not interested." However, what are your thoughts on total emasculation and character assassination?
Nowadays, a lot of females don't simply say "No." They will proceed to totally tear down a man they are not interested in (pointing every imperfection he may or may not have) , spread vicious rumors about him to their female friends/acquaintances and even maintain online databases to to further break his character (dontdatehimgirl.com comes to mind).  Ladies generally get a pass on appearing to be stuck up because they don't want to deal with a guy calling them out of their name if rejected. Can guys get little consideration for being hesitant to approach because they may need a little time to gird themselves against rejection that would make Simon Cowell appear soft?

No, those men don't get a pass.  As Eleanor Roosevelt so aptly put it "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."  Why would a grown man, confident in who and what he is, give a complete stranger beyatch the power to emasculate him and assassinate his character when she doesn't even know him?

And further, look at the shit women have to put up with from men that approach us sideways!  We get cussed out, called out of our name, treated with disrespect, talked to with disrespect, and sometimes groped.  So when you walk up to a woman, she doesn't know which one of those guys (good or knucklehead) you are going to be. 

And a female that would talk to a man that approached her RESPECTFULLY in such a way is stupid. I cannot defend some crude, rude heffa like that. 

All I can say is if a brotha is talked to like that he should say to her "hey look, I THOUGHT you were a woman of elegance, class and someone I wanted to get to know better, but I see I was wrong.  You have a nice day."  That's it.  Walk off and leave her stupid ass something to think about.  But you don't worry about those idiots because they are few and far between.  Most women have more intelligence and will just say "no thank you" in which case you still say "well I tried!  you have a nice day!"

3.) On a similar note, if ladies know that the exciting, outgoing, assertive guys tend to have "their pick of the litter" so to speak and that they often have obvious character flaws (cheating, lying etc), why complain when they get dogged out?

{Tangent}Maybe I misunderstood, but based on the posts I've seen online and individuals I've talked to offline, the "nice guy argument" usually doesn't revolve around the "bad boy took the girl I want." The actual arguments tend to be a) "She chose Mandingo Jones who is a known womanizer and now she says there's no good men out there. Hello I'm here!" or b) "I tried to date her but she rejected me for Tupac/Scarface/George Bush. Now that she has sexed more guys than days of the year/had 5 kids by four different fathers/sees that I started my own video game company and now make her yearly salary in one week, she wants to date me. Why should I settle for leftovers?"

Again, this is what I described - the Nice Guy Sense of Entitlement.  Nobody said you are OWED a woman, the woman you want, a woman with no children, a woman with no past.  So what she chose an exciting Mandingo Man over some boring chump?  Maybe Mandingo Man approached her and the chump sat on the sidelines whining about how he deserves someone.  Maybe she got tired of waiting for the nice guy to stop looking for Miss Perfect and she wanted companionship, romance and sex so she went with the guy that came along and provided those things. 

What bothers me a lot about "nice guys" is their judgmental, play it safe attitudes.  Why do they expect women to be "perfect" and never make a mistake, never have sex with a player, never get their heart broken?  See, at least these young women have the courage to pick up the dice and roll 'em, even if they lose in the end.   The nice guys never even go to the crap table, complaining about the odds and worrying about what they MIGHT MAYBE POSSIBLY EVENTUALLY lose!!!

Those types of men are cowards Scorpio.

Extra Credit question: What's with the videogame hate?  I can't be the only guy who knows happily married couples who are gamer fanatics. (Quick aside, all of my exes loved videogames just as much, if not more than I did. And they were hot  )

Its not hate if you do it together and you both enjoy it. It's just that so many men use their gaming as a way to isolate themselves from social interaction with women (and even other guys!)  If your video gameplaying is a part of your relationship, that's great!  But if you would rather play video games than be with your woman, or you would rather play video games than get off your butt and go out and try to MEET some women, then you have a problem.  And yes, I am gonna hate on you. 

[MsHeartBeat]

Now that we've answered why these women keep choosing bad boys perhaps we can talk about why they then turn around and RAISE one as well........

Then we get to the "which came first, the chicken or the egg."  Men raised by women that are strong and confident and who feel in control of their lives raise MEN.  Women that are abandoned, afraid, struggling, broken in spirit  are hardly capable of raising a MAN.  And why are those women afraid, struggling, broken in spirit and abandoned?  Because MEN DID THAT TO THEM.  Men abandon their sons.  If more men stepped up to the plate and made sure to be a positive influence, a consistent inflence, a meaningful contributor to their son's and daughter's lives, we'd have a lot less players and a lot more solid stable husband and wife teams in the Black community.

Until kneegrows get their shit together and step up and be men, you are going to see this pattern continuing and repeating itself ad naseaum. 

And don't you DARE try to put the blame for trifling men solely on the shoulders of females who are FORCED to raise their sons alone.  Try putting some of that responsibility on the shoulders of the trifling, barebacking, sperm shooting, do nothing after they get a woman pregnant men that got the women knocked up then left their sons. 

[Scorpio]

He would not have to Scorpio if he was satisfied with his life exactly as it was, for the rest of his years.  However, what I've noticed is that even players get tired of playing.  And going from woman to woman, always having shallow, superficial relationships gets boring and unsatisfying for everyone except the emotionally or mentally damaged.  A damaged man going through the motions of a committed relationship is the cheating husband you describe.  When a man really "grows up" he wants to be there for his woman, for his children, for his family, for his community, and he tends to be somewhat embarrassed about how he lived his life before he saw the light.  Run into hundreds of those types of men, of all races.  But those that never really change ... they die alone and lonely.  Who in their right mind wants to be like that in their sunset years?

Excellent points. Although, I think Hugh Hefner would disagree with you about the last part. 

No, those men don't get a pass.  As Eleanor Roosevelt so aptly put it "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."  Why would a grown man, confident in who and what he is, give a complete stranger beyatch the power to emasculate him and assassinate his character when she doesn't even know him?

I agree with this. However, my argument was not  that the emasculation succeeds, but that the man has to subject himself to the attempt.  Also about the character assassination part, lets be honest. If you saw a guy approach a group of women and they burst out laughing at the guy and loudly proclaim all his flaws, then the guy confidently approaches you, would you be more or less inclined to hear him out?

Better still, a woman tells you that a certain man is boring, wimpy, and has poor bedroom skills (you do not know this man personally and have had no prior interaction with him to judge). This man approaches you for a date. Would you totally disregard what the woman has told you or would it have an effect (however minuscule) on the first impression you get from this guy?

And further, look at the shit women have to put up with from men that approach us sideways!  We get cussed out, called out of our name, treated with disrespect, talked to with disrespect, and sometimes groped.  So when you walk up to a woman, she doesn't know which one of those guys (good or knucklehead) you are going to be. 

Ah, this leads to the crux of my argument. There appears to be a double-standard operating here (yes I know that life is full of them.) First off, let me say that I in no way endorse or condone disrespect to women or anyone for that matter.  That being said, again it seems like you’re given women a pass for being standoffish and outright rude due to fear of being disrespected by men,  while at the same time, saying that men are cowards if they fear being disrespected by women.

To put it another way, lets say a man sees a lady walking down the street that catches his eye. He moves in closer to engage, however, before he says anything, he sees that she has this frown on her face and she’s rolling her eyes at him before he even has a chance to say “Hello, how are you today?” Is he really that much of a coward if he chooses not to engage with someone who is throwing off all the signals of viewing him as an enemy combatant?

On a slight tangent (yes, I know), speaking for the guys here, ladies, the “stoneface” really does not reduce the amount of jerks that approach you. They are going to be disrespectful no matter what. What it does reduce is the number of respectful guys that approach you. Afterall, we’re merely respecting your apparent wish to be left alone. 

And a female that would talk to a man that approached her RESPECTFULLY in such a way is stupid. I cannot defend some crude, rude heffa like that. 

All I can say is if a brotha is talked to like that he should say to her "hey look, I THOUGHT you were a woman of elegance, class and someone I wanted to get to know better, but I see I was wrong.  You have a nice day."  That's it.  Walk off and leave her stupid ass something to think about.  But you don't worry about those idiots because they are few and far between.  Most women have more intelligence and will just say "no thank you" in which case you still say "well I tried!  you have a nice day!"

Once again, well put. However, I do have a small nitpick with this one. Just as most women are intelligent and classy enough to leave it at “Thanks but no thanks.” most men are considerate enough to leave it at “Thanks for your consideration, have a nice day.”

Again, this is what I described - the Nice Guy Sense of Entitlement.  Nobody said you are OWED a woman, the woman you want, a woman with no children, a woman with no past.  So what she chose an exciting Mandingo Man over some boring chump?  Maybe Mandingo Man approached her and the chump sat on the sidelines whining about how he deserves someone.  Maybe she got tired of waiting for the nice guy to stop looking for Miss Perfect and she wanted companionship, romance and sex so she went with the guy that came along and provided those things. 

Ms. Heartbeat, I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Yes no one, man or woman, is owed anything in this life, relationship or otherwise. However, do you really mean to imply that a “nice guy” (or any guy for that matter) has no right to have standards? A guy that has no children, no criminal past, has limited his sex partners is totally off base for looking for a woman who at least matches him on that? 

Also, it seems that the “nice guy” argument has again been misconstrued as  being a lament on how “All the women have been defiled and stolen from me by Mr. Nogood.” Again, that is not the premise (most of the time).  The argument is “How can  you complain about Mr. Nogood treating you like crap, when you’ve SEEN him treat other women like crap and he himself told you that he was going to treat you like crap (i.e. blatantly obvious character flaws)?”

{Analogy time} That’s like complaining that you’ve burned your hand on a stove when you felt the heat coming from it, there were warning lables all over it, and everybody in the kitchen warned you that if you touched it you would get burned.

Keep in mind, I think you're right about the guys who complain about "bad guys get the girls", but they don't have the stones to make first contact. My argument is not about them. I'm speaking of the guys who do approach, are rejected for Mr Excitement, then all of a sudden are found desireable later (even though they're still just as "boring" as ever) by that very same woman once her dating options have shrunk (due to age\children\etc.).  I make the same case for women who are looking for commitment. Why should she wait on a guy who is currently "playing the field" to get it out of his system when she can easily get a guy who currently has the same mindset as her?

What bothers me a lot about "nice guys" is their judgmental, play it safe attitudes.  Why do they expect women to be "perfect" and never make a mistake, never have sex with a player, never get their heart broken?  See, at least these young women have the courage to pick up the dice and roll 'em, even if they lose in the end.   

I agree that relationships require risk, although I disagree that men are cowards if they choose not to take that risk.  Also, I disagree that it is courageous to settle with a known loser. Not all mistakes are equal. Again I reference my argument above. What’s wrong with wanting someone who is equally yoked? Yes, we all make mistakes, it’s human nature. However, would you advise a young lady to settle down with an ex-felon? Would you date a man that has three children by three different women (never married)?  Should a woman who has her own place and manages her money well settle for a guy who stays with his parents and he can barely afford the Dollar Menu? If no, then why should a man have to settle for less than what he is offering if he’s not willing to?

The nice guys never even go to the crap table, complaining about the odds and worrying about what they MIGHT MAYBE POSSIBLY EVENTUALLY lose!!!

I agree 100% with this. This is also my interpretation of the “nice guy” argument concerning certain women. Make your choice. Live your life. Just DON’T COMPLAIN about a stupid choice you’ve made when it was obvious that it was a stupid choice.

{Rant}Ladies, shouldn’t complain about there being no good men
when the only place you go to meet guys is a nightclub or bar. Guys shouldn’t complain about not finding a good woman when a) they’re not actively searching/approaching women and b) they’re approaching women based on looks or how they respond to flashy objects.  {End Rant}

Sorry, people who can’t accept the consequences of their actions really irritate me.

[Scorpio]

Being a "nice guy" does not win you any brownie points in the dating game!  Never has, never will.  You win at dating when you give the opposite sex what they want.

The quote above is from Ms Heartbeat's article on why nice guys often get left out in the cold..I tell all the nice guys I know, be yourself and go after what you want..Nine times out of ten, the majority of women will respond positively to you when you approach them..Those that don't? Well,  they just missed out on a golden opportunity--NEXT!! Don't sit around wondering about what could have been..Move on..

Is it okay to analyze your game and see what you can do to improve your social skills? Sure it is..Is it okay to remember each and every woman that rejected you? Hell to the no!! She doesn't want you? NEXT!!

Excellent post as always Cool Breeze. However, I do have a few follow-up questions related to the above excerpt.

1) How does this apply to the outsider? This is the girl or guy who was constantly teased and belittled when younger. They were told nothing but negative information (called ugly, dumb, worthless etc.) Now if this is all they known during their formative years, can they reasonably expect to just “put themselves out there” when all they’ve known is rejection?


2)What is your opinion on the “Mike Jones Scenario”? This is the case when a man approaches a single woman and she outright rejects him (they are both in the same social/economic level). Later, this man becomes wildly successful/famous and the same woman who originally rejected him approaches him concerning a possible relationship. Is it wrong for the guy to feel even the slightest bit insulted? After all, the only thing thats changed about him is his income and status.

[da6cents]

And don't you DARE try to put the blame for trifling men solely on the shoulders of females who are FORCED to raise their sons alone.  Try putting some of that responsibility on the shoulders of the trifling, barebacking, sperm shooting, do nothing after they get a woman pregnant men that got the women knocked up then left their sons.

Slow down MHB. I sort of knew my statement would get you a little riled up and for the record I TOTALLY (well almost but I'll explain in a minute) agree with you as I put the accountability and blame for the state of young Black males squarely on the shoulders of Black so called 'MEN'. However, the responsibility is shared. Men MUST step up and into the lives of these young Brothers if they are to be men and if the cycle of this playa bullshyt is to come to an end. However, women will also have to do their part. One they will have to stop having children by irresponsible men (how bout putting them a$$holes on ignore PERIOD?). Two they will have to do their best to enlist the assistance of strong good men to become mentors for their sons. I know, easier said than done, since everytime I try and get Brothers (on and offline) to become mentors they claim its not their responsibIlity. So how will we ensure that our daughters and nieces find good black men to marry if few Black men want to step up and raise/mentor future husbands?

Men raised by women that are strong and confident and who feel in control of their lives raise MEN.  Women that are abandoned, afraid, struggling, broken in spirit  are hardly capable of raising a MAN.

I'd have to disagree with you here. You'd be surprised at the number of "strong and confident" black women who raise weaklings for sons. While the Mother is strong, confident and independent they do every damn thing for their sons from picking out his clothes to cooking his food to doing his laundry to cleaning up after him. And this is when the boy is 15-16 years old!!! They speak for him at restaurants or in any other situation (instead of letting him speak for himself), make excuses for him when he lost or forgot something he's responsible for bringing, let him record his voice on the phone greeting when he aint paying no damn bills and everything else to make him dependent on a woman (google 'How To Raise a Pimp' by Dr. Fortson).

I run a youth mentoring program and its disappointing to say the least at the number of mothers I meet who have it going on in their personal lives but who are raising irresponsible future 25 year old sleeping on momma's couch playing x-box mofo's. The vicious cycle of dating and complaining about a 'bad boy' while raising one is SERIOUS!

But again, I agree that this all goes back to the Black man dropping the ball and now not even trying to pick the shyt up.
 

[cool breeze]

Scorpio, I was always the outsider..The black kid who liked comic books, "Star Trek" and who got good grades..I also was good at sports..So I was always in a tug of war with somebody..My nerd friends couldn't understand why I loved sports so much and my homies who I played sports with couldn't get with the fact that I took comic books and learning so seriously..

In the end I realized that I was unique and that "uniqueness"was gonna be cool with some and not cool with others..It just gives me a wider variety of friends..Some are nerdy, some are from the cool kids clique..I just wasn't willing to sacrifice what made me ME to fit into anyone's group..Take me as I am if not, Later for you then..

I take rejection with a grain of salt because someone's opinion of me if they don't truly know me doesn't carry that much weight..If rejection hurts, you're not approaching enough people I say..The more it happens, the tougher you'll become..Call it the "callous of experience"..

Now, as for the Mike Jones deal..He can either date her or next her..It's that simple..She wants a man with money obviously and he had none when he stepped to her the first time..Now that he's rolling, he shouldn't be suprised to see that her attitude towards him has now changed..He knows where he stands with her and what to expect should he date her and the money runs out for whatever reason..

A true shonuff player would dog her and forget her and not even bother to mention her on a track on his cd..

[devineone]

I agree with this. However, my argument was not  that the emasculation succeeds, but that the man has to subject himself to the attempt.  Also about the character assassination part, lets be honest. If you saw a guy approach a group of women and they burst out laughing at the guy and loudly proclaim all his flaws, then the guy confidently approaches you, would you be more or less inclined to hear him out?

I would probably be disgusted that a group of women would behave that way towards a guy like that.  As a woman, I would not approach a guy I was interested in while he was amongst a group of guys either.  I would prefer that the guy approach me first.  In the past, when I've approached guys first it never panned out into anything substantial.  I believe this was addressed in the Hunter vs Fishermen thread topic.  Even if the guy was looking at me and showing interest but wouldn't get up to make a move, so I would do it to get the ball rolling, the guy not making the first move sort of sent the message that he was "passively" engaging me instead of actively engaging me.

Better still, a woman tells you that a certain man is boring, wimpy, and has poor bedroom skills (you do not know this man personally and have had no prior interaction with him to judge). This man approaches you for a date. Would you totally disregard what the woman has told you or would it have an effect (however minuscule) on the first impression you get from this guy?

Several years ago, I did date a guy who had poor bedroom skills and had no interest whatsoever in improving them.  He knew that he was lousy in bed, yet he was always interested in having sex. I consulted with a good friend to try to find out what I should do about the situation because he was a "nice dude".  In the end, I had to leave that alone.  While sex is not the be all end all to a relationship, it is still an important enough part that both partners should enjoy it.  This guy felt that since he wasn't out there ho-hopping around and doing everything else that obvious playas do, that I ought to be glad to have him and "put up with his lack of bedroom skills.  I tried to do it, but in the end, I had to leave that alone.  Now I feel that a guy or a woman who is incapable of sexually pleasing their partner (short of some medical reason) is being selfish for not having "skills".  There are too many instructional videos available that teach lovemaking skills for someone to be ignorant in the ways of sexual skills.  Just as they can learn other skills that are important to them, they can learn that one too and you don't have to be a playa to learn it.  IMO for a woman to say that a man is a lousy lover, (at least in my case), it is because that man hasn't shown any interest in trying to be better.  Everyone has a starting point, but no one has to stay lousy unless they just want to.

Ah, this leads to the crux of my argument. There appears to be a double-standard operating here (yes I know that life is full of them.) First off, let me say that I in no way endorse or condone disrespect to women or anyone for that matter.  That being said, again it seems like you’re given women a pass for being standoffish and outright rude due to fear of being disrespected by men,  while at the same time, saying that men are cowards if they fear being disrespected by women.

Scorpio it seems that you totally missed this comment made by Ms HB.

And a female that would talk to a man that approached her RESPECTFULLY in such a way is stupid. I cannot defend some crude, rude heffa like that. 
All I can say is if a brotha is talked to like that he should say to her "hey look, I THOUGHT you were a woman of elegance, class and someone I wanted to get to know better, but I see I was wrong.  You have a nice day."  That's it.  Walk off and leave her stupid ass something to think about.  But you don't worry about those idiots because they are few and far between.  Most women have more intelligence and will just say "no thank you" in which case you still say "well I tried!  you have a nice day

It doesn't seem as though she is giving men a free pass by pointing out that while men do get rejected and clowned on by women, women get clowned on, and pawed on by men as well. I agree Dating is hard for both sexes!

To put it another way, lets say a man sees a lady walking down the street that catches his eye. He moves in closer to engage, however, before he says anything, he sees that she has this frown on her face and she’s rolling her eyes at him before he even has a chance to say “Hello, how are you today?” Is he really that much of a coward if he chooses not to engage with someone who is throwing off all the signals of viewing him as an enemy combatant?

Of course he is not a coward for choosing not to engage a woman who is giving off vibes that she does not want to be bothered.  However this is one example of when it is "obviously" right for a guy not to engage a woman who does not want to be bothered.  What about when the guy still chooses not to engage a woman who is not so obvious in giving out signals?  Does he assume she doesn't want to be bothered?  Does he sit there and talk himself out of getting up and approaching her because of "what might happen if he did"?  Does he dwell on all of the negative occurances that happened when he approached ladies before and allows that to become the wall he uses in his defense of not approaching ladies he meet?  Or does he look at each chance to meet a lady as a new beginning, a different lady and a new day?  Or is he painting all the ladies with the same brush of hatefully humiliating and rejecting him.  I can honestly say, I have never humilated or rejected a guy the way you described how the ladies have done in your posts.  I wonder what type of women do this What type of woman are you approaching? (If this is you).

On a slight tangent (yes, I know), speaking for the guys here, ladies, the “stoneface” really does not reduce the amount of jerks that approach you. They are going to be disrespectful no matter what. What it does reduce is the number of respectful guys that approach you. Afterall, we’re merely respecting your apparent wish to be left alone. 

Scorpio, if a respectful guy allows a "stoneface" to dissuade him from approaching a woman, then the fault lies with the guy.  You're trying to make it seem as if the onus should be on the woman to act a certain way, have a certain expression, in order to make things "easy" for the nice guy to approach.  Just as you say a disrespectful guy will approach regardless, then why can't a so called "nice guy" approach regardless.  At least the disrespecful guy approaches, mean while the nice guy is too busy being afraid of her "stoneface" to approach.  Who knows what the reason she has for her expression.  Maybe she had a bad day at work, and a nice guy talking to her would be just the thing.  What women like are guys who are assertive and not afraid to take chances and put themselve out there.  That seems to be where the so called nice guys fall short.
They want a woman but don't want to put themselves out there.    Not all guys who approach women are bad guys either.  I admire the heck out of guys who go for what they want.  I've had playas with obvious "lines' approach me and you know what?  I've laughed and flirted and told them, "nice line".  They ended up being entertaining and I've even shared a drink with them before they left to hunt more gullible quarry.  They had personality and pizzazz and I liked that.  Doesn't mean I would date them, but I liked that part about them.

Ms. Heartbeat, I have to respectfully disagree with you here. Yes no one, man or woman, is owed anything in this life, relationship or otherwise. However, do you really mean to imply that a “nice guy” (or any guy for that matter) has no right to have standards? A guy that has no children, no criminal past, has limited his sex partners is totally off base for looking for a woman who at least matches him on that? 

Two of my brothers married women with kids and those women turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to them.  They also married older women.  One of my brothers ended up adopting the little girl because her real father was in jail and he had been dating the mother since the little girl was 4, she is now 8 and he was the only consistent male figure in his life.  I never knew my brother would be a father like this.  He was a bit of a playa.  He loves this little girl, my niece.  He coaches her soccer team, goes over her homework lessons and is teaching her guitar.  His wife takes good care of her family.  So in these two cases, my brothers marrying women with kids from previous relationships ended up being a good thing.  I'm glad they didn't just outright reject and judge their future wives because they had kids.  I would have missed out on my nieces and nephews.  I'm glad their "standards" were flexible.

My argument is not about them. I'm speaking of the guys who do approach, are rejected for Mr Excitement, then all of a sudden are found desireable later (even though they're still just as "boring" as ever) by that very same woman once her dating options have shrunk (due to age\children\etc.).  I make the same case for women who are looking for commitment. Why should she wait on a guy who is currently "playing the field" to get it out of his system when she can easily get a guy who currently has the same mindset as her?

If a woman you approached at one point rejected you and now finds you desirable for whatever reason, if she was someone you were interested in before, then why is she now no longer someone acceptable for you to date now that she is showing an interest in you?  Are you rejecting her because you don't want her now because she rejected you earlier, or are you rejecting her because she has kids, is older, etc..?  Do all of those factors end your attraction for her?  If she is a person you were drawn to before all of those factors were in place, and you met her again and still found yourself attracted to her but couldn't get past the "factors", then what is the real issue here? Her factors or your pride and grudge of her rejecting you in the past?  Just putting out thoughts here, not trying to accuse you of anything.  

Also, I disagree that it is courageous to settle with a known loser. Not all mistakes are equal. Again I reference my argument above. What’s wrong with wanting someone who is equally yoked? Yes, we all make mistakes, it’s human nature. However, would you advise a young lady to settle down with an ex-felon? Would you date a man that has three children by three different women (never married)?  Should a woman who has her own place and manages her money well settle for a guy who stays with his parents and he can barely afford the Dollar Menu? If no, then why should a man have to settle for less than what he is offering if he’s not willing to?

Yes I would date a guy who has had 3 kids by 3 different women as long as he had the qualities and treated me the way I want to be treated at the time I'm involved with him.  Yes his past may give me pause, but I'm woman enough to give him a chance in the present.  As I've already told you about my brothers who have married women with kids and I have a sister who is married and has been for over 20 years to a man with a kid.  All of these are good people.  Having kids out of wedlock don't automatically make you into a "bad person".  I'm not condoning that at all, but if you are outright rejecting a woman because of her past, then you aren't giving yourself a chance to know if this woman has learned from her mistakes from the past.  You're assuming that she is still stuck in the past.  Would I date an ex-con.  It depends on the circumstances of his crime.  Some of your best people are the ones who have gone to the school of hard knocks and they are now community advocates.  What ever happened to giving people a second chance?  It seems as though with you if a person makes a mistake then that is it.  You have forever condemned that person by their mistakes.  Now I do agree that it is rare for a leopard to change its spots, but I do know of cases of baby mama's and ex-cons who are beautiful people and who have made good mentors, husbands, wives and friends.  Once a "loser" as you've put it does not mean that a person has to "stay a loser'.  I certainly wouldn't call the people that I know of who have had babies out of wedlock and have served jail time losers now.  They were people who made bad choices and got caught up but they have overcome that and have made their lives better.  Maybe having someone in their lives who thought they were worthy inspite of their past, inspired them to become better people. 

This is also my interpretation of the “nice guy” argument concerning certain women. Make your choice. Live your life. Just DON’T COMPLAIN about a stupid choice you’ve made when it was obvious that it was a stupid choice.

What about the not so obvious stupid choices?  Just because a woman may have her act together on the outside doesn't mean she has it together on the inside.  I don't want to even get started on women and men who are just a facade, their inside does not match the outside.  From what I've gathered from you, a guy marrying a woman with babies is one example of a "stupid choice".  I'm sure glad my brothers didn't discount their wives because they were baby mamas.

{Rant}Ladies, shouldn’t complain about there being no good men
when the only place you go to meet guys is a nightclub or bar.

The guy who dogged me out was someone I met in a band.  Someone with whom I had a lot in common.  He wasn't someone I met in a club or bar.  He was someone with all of right external factors in place: Educated, comes from a good family all of that.  Yet inside he was emotionally messed up.  Conclusion:  "bad guys lurk in many venues, not just the clubs.    I've actually met nice guys in some clubs.  I'm a nice girl sometimes I like Happy Hour and I like to go out and dance.  I'm not going to assume that all guys who are in the clubs are bad just because they are there, after all I'm not. 

Sorry, people who can’t accept the consequences of their actions really irritate me.

They irritate me as well.  However, in the world of dating, I've had my share of heartbreak. I've definitely gone to the school of hard knocks, however I'm not a cynic.  I don't automatically look for the bad in someone, they have to show me that side of them.  I approach guys thinking of them with the best of intentions until they show me otherwise.  If that date didn't go well, I'm irritated, but oh well back to the drawing board.  I've been dating a really nice guy for several months now.  Why is he nice to me?  Lots of reasons too many to name.  Perhaps it is as simple as him not trying to get into my undies during the first 3 dates.  Perhaps it's because he is everything an obvious playa is not.  Perhaps it is because I'm at a point in my life where I can appreciate a "nice guy" who is assertive and approached me.  People do have to mature and get to a certain emotionally mature stage in their lives.  This takes time.   In my case, I haven't dated obvious playas, the guys that got me were the "playa's hidden in sheep clothing.'  I was too gullible, immature and naive to see a lot of that once upon a time, but now I see it.  Playas come in all walks of life and they aren't always the "obvious jail time, baby daddy, thugged out druggies.  Some of them are college educated, suit wearing, academically intelligent', career accomplished guys.  However when it comes to women, they are just as bad as the obvious playas.