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Author Topic: The Bush Administration Turned a blind eye on shady Subprime loans  (Read 16518 times)
Ndgo
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« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2008, 04:44:34 PM »

Nobody is saying that we can't make it happen for ourselves because we can make it and we have made it.  But that doesn't mean we choose to forget, or we choose to "stop talking about the struggles or we close our eyes to the struggles."  I don't choose to do that.  You can do that, that's your right, but don't tell me what I can and can't talk about as relates to the struggles of the people who are important to me.  You can choose to delete that from your memory banks if you want, but I'm not going to do that.
Me either! It's not like we're some spontaneous generation that just popped into the circumstances we find ourselves. There is a reason as to why things are the way they are. It isn't just by chance or happenstance or serendipity.

You can't just start building a future without knowing and acknowledging the lessons of the past.
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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2008, 06:27:01 PM »

Whatever legacy.  You know when I first joined this forum, I was so impressed by your posts.  I told you as much.  You came off as such an intellectual person.  I told my friends about this neat site where there are intelligent black men and women who seem to be able to discuss a myriad of topics and do so intellectually.  I looked forward to reading, learning and sharing my thoughts as well.

However your subsequent post took care of my admiration.  You come off as an arrogant, forum bully who is disrespectful and dismissive of anyone's opinion who may be different from your own, you're aggressive and antagonistic...you want everyone to give you props for your posts but you're unwilling to concede any points to anyone else. 

All of those traits totally usurp the admiration I initially had for you.   
 I guess you think you're being cute, but you're not.  In fact your behavior is quite high schoolish and one would think a man who likes to talk about the fact that you have attained a college degree, would also put some value in "acting" like a college graduate and an adult man and not like how a teenager would act.  How you come across says a lot more about who you are than the fact that you have a degree and a job. That's just exterior growth, how are you intrinsically?

You won't even answer the question about what you yourself do off the boards to help the people you are always criticizing.  Anyone can talk and coach from the sidelines. 
So yawn back to you. And next...  I can't give credibility to someone who seems to be all talk and especially someone who always dismisses everyone else's opinion in such a junvenile and derragotory manner.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 08:51:39 AM by devineone » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2008, 07:41:48 AM »

Here's an interesting and timely comment I found:

 "It's a funny thing about PROSPERITY, if handled right, if no one purposely blocks it, it has a ripple effect, it touches the lives of ALL the citizens. Even those who would,” cut off the nose, to spite their face", benefit.

If any people know how to make a , “silk purse out off a sows ear”, it's the working POOR, We've been doing that ever since our ancestors got here, and we are still doing it, (quite well I might add), today. We still go to work every day, and maintain our families, (way more of us than the media would have us believe)."

....and I totally agree with this message.
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« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2008, 08:13:47 AM »

Ok, y'all read carefully... This is the ONE time you're gonna see a congressperson actually take responsibility for the mess they created..

Artur Davis admits he was wrong on Fannie/Freddie
Posted by Mary Orndorff October 02, 2008 8:37 AM

http://blog.al.com/sweethome/2008/10/artur_davis_admits_he_was_wron.html

Fox News' Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes this week aired video from a 2004 Congressional hearing showing Democrats doubting the warnings about the financial soundness of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Rep. Artur Davis, who was at the hearing but not in the video clips they aired, sent them a response:

"Like a lot of my Democratic colleagues, I was too slow to appreciate the recklessness of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I defended their efforts to encourage affordable homeownership, when in retrospect I should have heeded the concerns raised by their regulator in 2004. Frankly, I wish my Democratic colleagues would admit that when it comes to Fannie and Freddie, we were wrong. By the way, I wish my Republican colleagues would admit that they missed the early warning signs that Wall Street deregulation was overheating the securities market and promoting dangerously lax lending practices. When it comes to the debacle in our capital markets, there is much blame to go around for both sides."


Colmes said on air that it takes "a significant amount of intellectual honesty to admit he and his colleagues made a mistake."

For the record, Davis in the hearing aggressively challenged the regulator for his criticisms of Fannie and Freddie.

Davis:
"You have imputed various motives to the people running the organization.You went to the board and put a 48-hour ultimatum on them without having any specific regulatory authority to put that kind of ultimatum on them.That sounds like some kind of an invisible line has been crossed. That sounds to me as if you have gone from being a dispassionate regulator to someone who is very much involved and has a stake in this controversy."

More Davis:
"Is it possible that by casting all of these dispersions and all of these doubts upon the board at Fannie Mae, and upon the structure of Fannie Mae, that you potentially are weakening this institution in the market, that you are potentially weakening the housing market in this country?Are those possible consequences from the very broad and sweeping generalizations you have made about this institution?"

------------------------------

Again, we gotta understand why we're in the mess we're in. If we don't understand basic economics (esp the difference between capitalism & socialism), political imposition which created this & several other problems, & the overwhelming evidence that the welfare state doesn't work then we'll fail to see why this happened & it will happen again and again and again.

We gotta hold politicians accountable for their poor decisions, period. At least Davis is man enough to admit to his mistakes. Having said that, even thought congress was trying to do something positive, they got us a near economic collapse & have cost us a trillion dollars in bailouts.

The government can't fix problems for people that those individuals have to fix for themselves. That includes health care, child care, home ownership, etc.  People HAVE to acquire enough skill to make wages that will take care of those issues. That's the solution.

So, don't drop out of HS. Stop telling people college isn't for everybody. Stop having children out of wedlock. Stop committing crimes to acquire the resources you need because you refused to acquire the skills to get those resources. We haven't been stressing the very simple values in the community.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 08:32:38 AM by Legacy » Logged

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« Reply #49 on: October 12, 2008, 04:53:41 PM »

Fox News' Sean Hannity and Alan Colmes this week aired video from a 2004 Congressional hearing showing Democrats doubting the warnings about the financial soundness of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.
There you go AGAIN... quoting and spouting off stuff you pick up from the FOX "News" Channel... You're hinging what you read and view on FOX to shore up your misleading arguements... ?? Shocked

But hold up... that DOES make perfect sense.... lol... hahahaha.... whew...  Let's just by-pass all this pretense... why don't you go straight to the source and see what Rupert has to say on the matter? You can read it directly from the Wall Street Journal ... another media tentacle owned by Rupert... and it's NO secret, except to maybe You, I'm afraid... Rupert not only uses his wholly owned "News" Organizations as a mouth-piece for the Republican Party, but also for the the far right-wing of the political spectrum. So of course, this whole melt-down is the fault of banks lending money to undeserving minorities who never should have been in those homes in the 1st place... The WHOLE world is falling apart because Banks make loans to the "poor"....

Maybe in some sort of a time-warped twisted vacuum in some sort of alternate universal that could have happened... but in the world WE current live in... follow the money.... and you'll find the culperts.... and here's a hint... it's not Joe Sixpack or any of the round the way girls either. The mortage products that were sold to them were inheirently faulty, misleading and in many cases predatory... but that's not the only reason why ALL these banks and financial institutions are failing.

You really ought to know better... and since you have an adversion to root-cause analysis... you are on your on this one... go figure it out... l'm sure Hannity has it laid out somewhere on the Fox Website...  Tongue
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 05:12:02 PM by Ndgo » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2008, 12:27:30 PM »

Nobel Prize winner Princeton University's Paul Krugman wins in Economics.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=ajYbCkoWcy30&refer=home

Paul Krugman talked about the downfall the economy would take with the over inflated housing prices back in Aug. 29th, 2005 in an article that appeared in the NY Times where he is a regular contributer.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/29/opinion/29krugman.html

Greenspan and the Bubble
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: August 29, 2005
Most of what Alan Greenspan said at last week's conference in his honor made very good sense. But his words of wisdom come too late. He's like a man who suggests leaving the barn door ajar, and then - after the horse is gone - delivers a lecture on the importance of keeping your animals properly locked up.

Regular readers know that I have never forgiven the Federal Reserve chairman for his role in creating today's budget deficit. In 2001 Mr. Greenspan, a stern fiscal taskmaster during the Clinton years, gave decisive support to the Bush administration's irresponsible tax cuts, urging Congress to reduce the federal government's revenue so that it wouldn't pay off its debt too quickly.

Since then, federal debt has soared. But as far as I can tell, Mr. Greenspan has never admitted that he gave Congress bad advice. He has, however, gone back to lecturing us about the evils of deficits.

Now, it seems, he's playing a similar game with regard to the housing bubble.

At the conference, Mr. Greenspan didn't say in plain English that house prices are way out of line. But he never says things in plain English.

What he did say, after emphasizing the recent economic importance of rising house prices, was that "this vast increase in the market value of asset claims is in part the indirect result of investors accepting lower compensation for risk. Such an increase in market value is too often viewed by market participants as structural and permanent." And he warned that "history has not dealt kindly with the aftermath of protracted periods of low-risk premiums." I believe that translates as "Beware the bursting bubble."

But as recently as last October Mr. Greenspan dismissed talk of a housing bubble: "While local economies may experience significant speculative price imbalances, a national severe price distortion seems most unlikely."

Wait, it gets worse. These days Mr. Greenspan expresses concern about the financial risks created by "the prevalence of interest-only loans and the introduction of more-exotic forms of adjustable-rate mortgages." But last year he encouraged families to take on those very risks, touting the advantages of adjustable-rate mortgages and declaring that "American consumers might benefit if lenders provided greater mortgage product alternatives to the traditional fixed-rate mortgage."

If Mr. Greenspan had said two years ago what he's saying now, people might have borrowed less and bought more wisely. But he didn't, and now it's too late. There are signs that the housing market either has peaked already or soon will. And it will be up to Mr. Greenspan's successor to manage the bubble's aftermath.

How bad will that aftermath be? The U.S. economy is currently suffering from twin imbalances. On one side, domestic spending is swollen by the housing bubble, which has led both to a huge surge in construction and to high consumer spending, as people extract equity from their homes. On the other side, we have a huge trade deficit, which we cover by selling bonds to foreigners. As I like to say, these days Americans make a living by selling each other houses, paid for with money borrowed from China.

One way or another, the economy will eventually eliminate both imbalances. But if the process doesn't go smoothly - if, in particular, the housing bubble bursts before the trade deficit shrinks - we're going to have an economic slowdown, and possibly a recession. In fact, a growing number of economists are using the "R" word for 2006.

And here's where Mr. Greenspan is still saying foolish things. In his closing remarks he suggested that "an end to the housing boom could induce a significant rise in the personal saving rate, a decline in imports and a corresponding improvement in the current account deficit." Translation, I think: the end of the housing bubble will automatically cure the trade deficit, too.

Sorry, but no. A housing slowdown will lead to the loss of many jobs in construction and service industries but won't have much direct effect on the trade deficit. So those jobs won't be replaced by new jobs elsewhere until and unless something else, like a plunge in the value of the dollar, makes U.S. goods more competitive on world markets, leading to higher exports and lower imports.

So there's a rough ride ahead for the U.S. economy. And it's partly Mr. Greenspan's fault.


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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2008, 01:06:16 PM »

Sweet Baby Jesus.....  Roll Eyes

What in the world does the network have to do with the guy's actual statement. Would his own words be different if he said it on CNN or MSNBC? Those are his words, not anyone from Fox... That's what Athur Davis said himself..


Watch the CSPAN clip below. You'll see Athur Davis questioning the regulator which amounts to defending Fannie & Freddie Mac in 2004 with your own eyes (not to mention Barney Frank, Lacy Clay, Maxine Waters, & Gregory Meeks). Now, you can ignore the partisan comments added to the video by the person who uploaded the clip but what you can't ignore is the actual words coming out of each person's mouth. Almost all the democrats in that clip spoke as if there were no problems @ Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac & at least Davis was man enough to step up & say we were wrong.

Excerpts from a 2004 hearing to investigate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac's illegal book keeping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h00DsC9-zI

You can actually buy the video here.. Unfortunately, you can't watch it on the site..

http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=183818-1&highlight=

Management of Fannie Mae

Product ID:    183818-1
Format:    House Committee
Financial Services
Last Airing:    10/11/2004
Event Date:    10/06/2004
Length:    7 hours, 35 minutes
Location:    Washington, District of Columbia


You can view some of the transcripts from that meeting here:

THE OFHEO REPORT: ALLEGATIONS OF ACCOUNTING AND MANAGEMENT FAILURE AT FANNIE MAE
http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/bank/hba97754.000/hba97754_0f.htm
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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2008, 01:58:13 PM »

If Greenspan said that, I would say it probably wasn't the best advice for some. However, that doesn't change the fact that Athur Davis & several house democrats thought it was more appropriate to defend Raines than heed the words of the OFHEO report on Fannie.

To be fair, Greenspan warned that GSE's could be a risk to taxpayers in 2004.

Fed Chief Warns of a Risk to Taxpayers

By EDMUND L. ANDREWS
Published: February 25, 2004

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802E4DF123CF936A15751C0A9629C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

 Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve, warned on Tuesday that the nation's two big government-sponsored mortgage institutions pose a ''systemic risk'' that could cost taxpayers dearly.

Mr. Greenspan said that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which buy up and repackage billions of dollars' worth of mortgages every year, have grown so rapidly and accumulated so much debt that they cannot adequately hedge against the risks of financial crises.

The Fed chairman said both companies, which hold about $2 trillion worth of obligations tied to home mortgages, have grown much faster than their competitors because investors think the federal government will bail them out in a crisis.

Mr. Greenspan said this ''implied subsidy'' has been a boon to the companies' shareholders but provided only modest benefits to homebuyers in the form of lower mortgage rates.

The danger, he said, is that the companies are using this implicit federal backstop to assume more risk and finance their expansion through increased debt.

''There is a general belief in the marketplace that these securities are backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government,'' Mr. Greenspan testified at a hearing of the Senate Banking Committee.

Even though the federal government does not guarantee the securities of Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac, Mr. Greenspan suggested that their special status as ''government-sponsored enterprises'' and their huge size would make it difficult for Congress to avoid a bailout in the event of a financial calamity. ''It's basically creating an abnormality, which the system cannot close around, and the potential of that is a systemic risk in -- sometime in the future, if they continue to increase at the rate at which they are.''

Shares of both companies dropped after Mr. Greenspan's testimony. Fannie Mae shares fell $2.65, to $76.25. Freddie Mac slid $1.81, to $62.12.

Fannie Mae executives quickly lashed back at Mr. Greenspan, complaining that many of his criticisms were based on a Fed study that it called seriously flawed.

''We, of course, disagree with most of his conclusions,'' said Jayne Shontell, Fannie Mae's senior vice president for investor relations. ''We believe that the testimony does not appreciate the role of our mortgage portfolio and the impact of his proposal.''

Mr. Greenspan's lengthy and blunt criticisms are likely to provide new impetus for legislative proposals aimed at tightening the regulatory control over both companies.

Though Mr. Greenspan has criticized Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the past, he expressed a greater degree of alarm about the potential risks posed by the companies, and he was insistent that Congress act ''sooner rather than later.''

Both companies have been under fire for more than a year, in part because both have admitted to a wide variety of questionable accounting practices.

Freddie Mac executives admitted in November that the company had understated earnings by $5 billion, a move they hoped would smooth out the company's long-term earnings trend and thus assuage investors. In October, Fannie Mae was forced to correct what it said were $1 billion in errors in its recent financial results.

Critics have complained for years that the two companies have been far less transparent in their financial reporting than ordinary financial institutions. But the larger concern voiced by Mr. Greenspan is that the companies may represent a huge and hidden financial liability that could at some point lead to a heavy costs for taxpayers.

The Bush administration has proposed transferring regulatory responsibility for the companies to the Treasury Department, which might then set new restrictions on their ability to issue debt or their requirements to keep larger amounts of capital in reserve.

Republicans and Democrats on the Senate Banking Committee are trying to draw up a bipartisan plan that would create an independent regulatory group, overseen by top officials at the Treasury, the Fed and the Department of Housing and Urban Development.

Originally chartered by Congress, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were created to expand the pool of money for home mortgages at a time when few banks or savings institutions operated nationwide.

The two companies essentially buy up mortgages from local lenders and bundle the loans into large securities, which they then resell on financial markets. Today, Mr. Greenspan said, the companies stand behind about $4 trillion worth of mortgages -- about three-quarters of all single-family mortgages in the United States.

Mr. Greenspan emphasized that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had done a good job of managing their risk thus far. But he said their total volume of outstanding debt could soon exceed the debt of the federal government itself. That would make it hard for the government to avoid a bailout, he said.

''The scale itself has reinforced investors' perceptions that in the event of a crisis involving Fannie and Freddie, policy makers would have little alternative than to have taxpayers explicitly stand behind the G.S.E. debt,'' Mr. Greenspan said, referring to the debt of ''government sponsored enterprises.''
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2008, 04:46:19 PM »

Sweet Baby Jesus.....  Roll Eyes

What in the world does the network have to do with the guy's actual statement. Would his own words be different if he said it on CNN or MSNBC? Those are his words, not anyone from Fox...
  Roll Eyes Nobody is disputing the fact that these companies were allowed to become over-leveraged. WHAT I'm trying to say is that you cannot pin faltering economy on the backs of the "poor" people who loans were serviced by Fannie and Freddie... As a matter of fact, Fannie and Freddie Mac have NOT gone under. The gov't made a pre-emptive strike... About 15% of their portfolio is troublesome and because these companies are sooo large that number adds up... scaring the heck out of investors and stockholders... but that's NOT the fault of "poor" people.

There are many factors that point to why we are where we are financially...  EXCESSIVE speculation that drove up prices so that they had NO correlation to the cost of housing... and all that speculation was funded by easy loans backed up by over-valued homes with the equity scrapped out of them. Greed had a part to play from the bottom to the top... people were flipping homes right and left.  I worked for a builder right before the bubble burst and homes were being flipped right after closing... from the time ground was broke and permitted to the final walk-through -- homes were going for tens of thousands, and in some cases, a 100,000 or more before the ink was dry on the paper. The demand was so great my boss couldn't raise prices fast enough to keep up ... in most cases, prices were driven sky-high by investors figuring they'd cash in.. these people never intended to live in those homes. Some of those neighborhoods are STILL fairly empty... sitting pretty with beautiful BIG but non-owner occupied homes... going belly up... one by one... people can't sell them because they were soooo over-valued and the buyers soooo over-leveraged fueled by greedy banks and institutions that were giving out mortages to every single Tom, private parts or Harry... THAT has nothing to do with loans given to poor people who intended to occupy their 1st home and got bumrushed into sub-prime loans with killer ARMs.

The types of loans that I mentioned previously... those are the ones that are going to send this country into a death spiral.  And that's not even counting those other exotic mortages for those buying multiple homes and pre-sucking out their equity... no money down, interest only payments for years with the amount owed on the principle growing and growing, people instantly upside down Shocked ... we haven't even seen what will happen with those loans yets... there is a tsunami wave of defaults coming down the pipe of "undeserved" loans to those who had means...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 07:19:50 PM by Ndgo » Logged

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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2008, 07:35:31 AM »

What the hell are you talking about? What is that, like strawwoman argument #1207412741??  Embarrassed

When did I blame this on poor people? I've been consistent in who gets the blame for this.

CONGRESS


Now, Congress was trying to do the right thing. Unfortunately, they were trying to fix a problem that didn't exist. They were under the mistaken assumption that "redlining" was some racial issue when in fact is was a market issue. Any loan that didn't involve major risk would have been given out (as it was to my parents, your parents, etc) by the lending institutions.

Congress f@#$ed up as the often do. If you watched the video clip I posted, there's no disputing that. And even if you didn't, there's this 10 trillion dollar debt we have with all of our names on it thanks to them.

What I'm trying to get you guys to see is BOTH SIDES are playing us. We get caught up in partisan politics while both parties are inappropriately wasting our tax dollars. Guys like Keith Olbermann & Sean Hannity are different sides of the same coin. Their goal is to get you to choose a side instead of acknowledging that BOTH SIDES are full of shyt. I ain't buying it. The main issue is not party specific. All of them crooks are robbing us.



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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2008, 02:01:31 PM »

I find it ironic that one of the Keating Five who "exercised poor judgement" during the S&L crisis (i.e. McCain) is running to be president and asking us to trust that he'll do the right thing this time.  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2008, 09:25:37 AM »

What I'm trying to get you guys to see is BOTH SIDES are playing us. We get caught up in partisan politics while both parties are inappropriately wasting our tax dollars. Guys like Keith Olbermann & Sean Hannity are different sides of the same coin. Their goal is to get you to choose a side instead of acknowledging that BOTH SIDES are full of shyt. I ain't buying it. The main issue is not party specific. All of them crooks are robbing us.
Funny though ... you claim not to be taking sides in all this but 99.999998% of your premise and argument has their root in a very right wing propaganda media blitz... You may claim that BOTH sides are EQUALLY to blame... and even THAT argument doesn't hold the main culperts accountable for their actions... it gives them a blind pass... How is THAT right or even fair? The money was not being split up 50/50 so why should the blame? The origins of the problem lies with the right. That's just the way the cookie crumbles and to ignore that is foolish. The US will never get past these times unless we start to identify the root causes and effect.

 ... AND ignoring it, muddies up the waters so much so that IF there is a way out, most people eyes will be too tainted and jaundiced to be able to parse through the all the information that's out there.

C'mon now,,, don't be afraid of history... --Save that stuff for your late night Fox TV viewing... ---

we will NEVER be able to fix what's wrong, unless people can figure out the how's and why's of getting to where we are now.... This IS NOT ground zero... there is a whole boat load of stuff that paved the way....

And here's a quote that I found that sums it up -- "To many Americans, the crisis seems too complex to comprehend. To understand it, we need to know: What is the problem? Who benefited? Who got hurt? Who is to blame? Who should we help? What should be done? Although the immediate cause is the widespread use of sub-prime mortgages, the root cause is a decades old failure of government to adequately regulate the banking industry."



« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 09:44:07 AM by Ndgo » Logged

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« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2008, 09:33:23 AM »

I find it ironic that one of the Keating Five who "exercised poor judgement" during the S&L crisis (i.e. McCain) is running to be president and asking us to trust that he'll do the right thing this time.  Roll Eyes
It's same old garbage thrown up by the same old culperts... We did not hold the system accountable to rein in greed... The Top 5% keep trying to find new ways to hoard all the money... They keep siphoning off the hard work and labor of the bottom 50%. This free lunch has got to stop...
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« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2008, 05:03:21 PM »


I really don't have time for your idiotic rants. Its old & tired.  Congress is jointly responsible because nothing gets thru w/o members of both parties supporting it but the DEMS did push this moreso than republicans.

Senator Christopher Dodd is the head of the Senate Banking Committee. (D)
Representative Barney Frank is the head of the House Finance Committee. (D)

Democrat after democrat during the House Cmte hearing attacked the OFHEO report detailing the accounting & management failure @ Fannie Mae. They all supported Raines who was later brought up on charges for his improprieties. Davis himself issued a statement apologizing for mistakes regarding Fannie Mae. I went as far as posting a video from the hearing so you could see it for yourself & even that won't stop you from spouting off a bunch of nonsense so far outside of reality that people have to wonder what planet you exist on.

It's clear facts don't matter to you so there's really no point in continuing a dialogue. Of course, you gotta have the last word so have it at it. You'll still be wrong.
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Respect even if you were ashes you couldn't earn  © Pharoahe Monch

Ndgo
Sistah's (female posters)
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Posts: 1297


Ponong nomboo o daat doiti' ? (Malaysian)


« Reply #59 on: October 19, 2008, 10:30:28 AM »

Oh please.... You're the one driving the Short Bus Express manuvering in and out of the intelligent traffic of this post, honking, blowing your horn trying to get people to hop on board, misleading and masking symptions trying to call it THE disease. This system is rife with cancer and you're calling attenion to the cough.

Sad part is you've shown an inablility to parse through talking points expertly filtered into the media by right-wing media beacons to get at the root. You really don't have a clue.
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very sweet and not at all harsh and bitter... Smiley

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