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Author Topic: The Police Shooting of Oscar Grant  (Read 24468 times)
Legacy
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« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2009, 10:47:12 AM »


 How is saying, "That black people have a knee jerk reaction to white cops shooting black men because it is reminiscent of what was once legally upheld and sanctioned by law, saying that I’m living in the past and that black people are living in the past?  Please explain that to me. 

Ok but why in the hell would someone 40 years or younger have *that* reaction if they're NOT living in the past? That shyt didn't happen to them. Also, why would a person over 40 years old not be able to see HOW MUCH THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED if they're not living in the past. That's my point.

You can't use the past as a reference point for TODAY. If anything, you need to worry about BLACK FOLX shooting your ass, not white folx. You need to worry about 50 Cent & Snoop calling you a nga, not white folx.

If anything, using the past should be used to contrast how much BETTER America is for black folx now as compared to then. It should INSPIRE black folx to see the major obstacles we've overcome & motivate us to go further.

They way we've have been using the past ( like Rev Wright in those sermons we saw during the primaries or Julian Bond on MLK day) keeps us FOCUSED on white folx who we end up resenting, bitter about America & apathetic towards our opportunities since no matter how hard we try the system (ie white folx) won't allow us to progress.

I'm just saying use the past as a tool to mobilize black folx into action because the sky is the limit rather than using it to suffocate their ambition.
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« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2009, 01:44:48 PM »

Quote
You notice something? I did. I NEVER SAID THE FIRST GROUP OF GUYS WERE BLACK!!!

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

PROFILE MUCH? WHY YOU PROFILING BLACK MEN? WHAT'S WRONG W/ YOU MAN? ARE YOU APART OF THE KLAN???

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! GOD DAYUM THAT'S ETHER!!!

LMAO!  I've been trying to stay out of this thread and you wrong for that Legacy,  but that was funny as hell. Cheesy  Was that some sort of trick question?  First thing I thought when you said sagging pants was "Black Man"  hahahahahhaha.... tooo funny.  Cheesy Grin Cheesy, I'm going to go run that by some people I know and see if they get snagged.  Cheesy Cool
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« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2009, 02:07:06 PM »

Ok but why in the hell would someone 40 years or younger have *that* reaction if they're NOT living in the past? That shyt didn't happen to them. Also, why would a person over 40 years old not be able to see HOW MUCH THE COUNTRY HAS CHANGED if they're not living in the past. That's my point.

I can't communicate and exchange ideas with you Legacy due to your inability to display basic reading comprehension skills.  You can't even answer the questions I asked you in my post.  You just continue with more made up arguments.  This conversation is over.  I need to communicate with someone who is at least past elementary level reading comprehension skills.  Who at least displays a modicum of understanding.  I certainly can relate to a lot of things that happened before my time, and some things that you 'think' happened way back then, 50 years ago, in my neck of the woods, DID happen in my life time, the 40 years or younger age group and more than a few times.  Don't attribute your life experiences to the rest of us. 

I grew up in the deep south and I've witnessed either directly or indirectly some racist stuff that didn't happen 50 or 60 years ago either.  I do remember it and I recall it and when something happens, I reference what happened during my lifetime.  Again, you do what makes you happy.  But I can't expect you to understand my reaction and it's not your place to question it.  I'm not up in here telling you how to react about events so you shouldn't be telling me what I should and shouldn't remember from the past.  To each his own.
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Legacy
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« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2009, 02:43:54 PM »

I can't communicate and exchange ideas with you Legacy due to your inability to display basic reading comprehension skills.  You can't even answer the questions I asked you in my post.  You just continue with more made up arguments.  This conversation is over. 

OH SWEET JESUS.. DO YOU PROMISE?

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« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2009, 03:30:25 PM »

Quote
You notice something? I did. I NEVER SAID THE FIRST GROUP OF GUYS WERE BLACK!!!

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

PROFILE MUCH? WHY YOU PROFILING BLACK MEN? WHAT'S WRONG W/ YOU MAN? ARE YOU APART OF THE KLAN???

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! GOD DAYUM THAT'S ETHER!!!

LMAO!  I've been trying to stay out of this thread and you wrong for that Legacy,  but that was funny as hell. Cheesy  Was that some sort of trick question?  First thing I thought when you said sagging pants was "Black Man"  hahahahahhaha.... tooo funny.  Cheesy Grin Cheesy, I'm going to go run that by some people I know and see if they get snagged.  Cheesy Cool


I used to argue that profiling is wrong as well w/o realizing one thing which is I profile too given certain situations. I also didn't realize that my angst shouldn't be aimed towards law enforcement but the black criminals who are putting me in a compromised situation not of my own making. And yes, it's technically "wrong" to judge a book by it's cover but the fact is we all do it so why would law enforcement be any different?

Now, if I see some kids w/ tattoos, saggin pants, talking loud @ the a HS basketball game then I'm not apt to see that the same as standing on the corner so circumstances might dictate how you interpret that specific scenario. In other situations, race, wardrobe, location, demeanor, etc might play a significant role.

Folx gonna tell me that if you see 6-8 young arab men get on your flight to D.C. or New York, NOTHING pops into your head? You see a white male co-worker who lost his corporate job & raised holy hell on his way out of the door that you're NOT thinking about staying home the next day? You see white kids with goth style clothing walking into school building w/ long coats on warm days that you're NOT keeping your eye on them?

Can we just stop lying for 5 minutes? We all profile. It might not be politically correct to say but it's truth. The difference is that once people give you evidence to the contrary, you have to be open minded enough to accept that they might not be what you initially assumed.

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« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2009, 03:37:45 PM »

Quote
Your wife is driving in an unfamiliar city @ night. She's gets a flat tire & has 2 choices.

a> She goes to the corner where she sees 5-6 men with tattoos, pants saggin, are talkin loud.

b> She goes to a corner where 5-6 are dressed in traditional indian wardrobe having a conversation.

What corner do you tell your wife to go to for help given that those are her ONLY 2 options?

Okay... not that this really adds anything to the discussion but I'll share it anyway... I just asked 4 different white men in my office these two questions.

The jew said he would tell his wife to ask letter A for help because they are dressed for the occassion (changing tires) and are probably better skilled at it.

The white man who lives in the burbs said he would tell his wife to wait in the car and don't bother with either group.

The white man who lives here in NYC said he would tell his wife to ask letter A for help for the same reason as the jew.

The fourth white man (who has an Indian wife btw)  was too inhibited to answer and turned beet red when I asked him the question and asked me if it was some kind of trick.  LOL Cheesy

Tooo funny.... Cheesy
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« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2009, 04:16:57 PM »

People profile, people make snap judgements, people exercise hidden prejudices.  I'm not a cop licenced to kill and carrying a gun with the power of life and death in my hands.  My "profiling" can hardly result in someone's death.
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« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2009, 04:36:10 PM »

Racial profiling doesn't work, PERIOD. Besides, it's illegal. What works is watching behavior. 

http://civilliberty.about.com/od/lawenforcementterrorism/tp/Against-Racial-Profiling.htm

Why Racial Profiling is a Bad Idea
Top 7 Arguments Against Racial Profiling
By Tom Head, About.com

The hardest thing about advocating reform of racial profiling practices, at a policy level, is convincing political leaders that it isn't just a "politically incorrect" or "racially insensitive" practice, but rather a destructive, ill-conceived, and ultimately ineffective law enforcement technique. This means looking hard at what racial profiling does, what it doesn't do, and what it says about our system of law enforcement. We need to be able to explain what, specifically, is wrong with racial profiling.

1. Racial profiling doesn't work.

One of the great myths about racial profiling is that it would work if only law enforcement agencies could use it--that by not using racial profiling, they're tying one hand behind their backs in the name of civil rights.

This simply isn't true:
An ACLU lawsuit uncovered police data indicating that while 73 percent of suspects pulled over on I-95 between 1995 and 1997 were black, black suspects were no more likely to actually have drugs or illegal weapons in their cars than white suspects.
According to the Public Health Service, approximately 70% of drug users are white, 15% are black, and 8% are Latino. But the Department of Justice reports that among those imprisoned on drug charges, 26% are white, 45% are black, and 21% are Latino.

2. Racial profiling distracts law enforcement agencies from more useful approaches.
When suspects are detained based on suspicious behavior rather than race, police catch more suspects.

A 2005 report by the Missouri attorney general is testimony to the ineffectiveness of racial profiling. White drivers, pulled over and searched on the basis of suspicious behavior, were found to have drugs or other illegal material 24% of the time. Black drivers, pulled over or searched in a manner that reflected a pattern of racial profiling, were found to have drugs or other illegal material 19% of the time.

The effectiveness of searches, in Missouri and everywhere else, is reduced--not enhanced--by racial profiling. When racial profiling is used, officers end up wasting their limited time on innocent suspects.

3. Racial profiling prevents police from serving the entire community.

Law enforcement agencies are responsible, or generally seen as responsible, for protecting law-abiding citizens from criminals.

When a law enforcement agency practices racial profiling, it sends the message that whites are assumed to be law-abiding citizens while blacks and Latinos are assumed to be criminals. Racial profiling policies set up law enforcement agencies as enemies of entire communities--communities that tend to be disproportionately affected by crime--when law enforcement agencies should be in the business of protecting crime victims and helping them find justice.

4. Racial profiling prevents communities from working with law enforcement.

Unlike racial profiling, community policing has consistently been shown to work. The better the relationship between residents and police, the more likely residents are to report crimes, come forward as witnesses, and otherwise cooperate in police investigations.

But racial profiling tends to alienate black and Latino communities, reducing the ability of law enforcement agencies to investigate crime in these communities. If police have already established themselves as enemies of a low-income black neighborhood, if there is no trust or rapport between police and residents, then community policing can't work. Racial profiling sabotages community policing efforts, and offers nothing useful in return.

5. Racial profiling is a blatant violation of the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Fourteenth Amendment states, very clearly, that no state may "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Racial profiling is, by definition, based on a standard of unequal protection. Blacks and Latinos are more likely to be searched by police and less likely to be treated as law-abiding citizens; whites are less likely to be searched by police and more likely to be treated as law-abiding citizens. This is incompatible with the concept of equal protection.

6. Racial profiling can easily escalate into racially-motivated violence.

Racial profiling encourages police to use a lower standard of evidence for blacks and Latinos than they would for whites--and this lower standard of evidence can easily lead police, private security, and armed citizens to respond violently to blacks and Latinos out of a perceived "self-defense" concern. The case of Amidou Diallo, an unarmed African immigrant who was killed in a hail of 41 bullets by the NYPD for attempting to show officers his driver's license, is only one case among many. Reports of suspicious deaths involving unarmed Latino and black suspects trickle out of our nation's major cities on a regular basis.

7. Racial profiling is morally wrong.

Racial profiling is Jim Crow applied as a law enforcement policy. It promotes the internal segregation of suspects within the minds of police officers, and it creates a second-class citizenship for black and Latino Americans.

If one has reason to know or believe that a specific suspect is of a certain racial or ethnic background, then it makes sense to include that information in the profile. But that isn't what people generally mean when they talk about racial profiling. They mean discrimination prior to the introduction of data--the very definition of racial prejudice.

When we allow or encourage law enforcement agencies to practice racial profiling, we are ourselves practicing vicarious racial discrimination. That is unacceptable.
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« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2009, 06:07:18 PM »

Quote
You notice something? I did. I NEVER SAID THE FIRST GROUP OF GUYS WERE BLACK!!!

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

PROFILE MUCH? WHY YOU PROFILING BLACK MEN? WHAT'S WRONG W/ YOU MAN? ARE YOU APART OF THE KLAN???

{Sigh} Good one Fallacy. But if you go back an forth with someone in an intense conversation about the profiling of Black men and then you post about 2 groups of men while explaining the ethnicity of one and not the other, it will be assumed that you're talking about Black men.

Again, I can understand the profiling of Black men in a high crime area populated by Black folx Carlton. I CANNOT agree that it's ok to profile Black men outside of that high crime area as not all Black folks live in that area. If we as Black folks feed into the bullish from the media that the majority of Black men are criminals (we aren't)  or that the majority of crime is committed by Black men (it isn't), then we will be scared to be around each other as will the rest of the world. I feel safe around my people. yet I'm always on point and on guard regardless of what environment I'm in.

BTW, I've been discussing that the solution to the problem with Black males is a cultural rites of passage program along with one-on-one mentoring. Not surprised that you missed it.

From my experiences as a program director and success as a mentor engaging in one-on-one mentoring, I can honestly say that young Black males lack positive role models and Fathers and these are leading factors to their juvenille delinquency and underachieving in schools. Yes some are lazy and other factors are involved. However, much of this can be eliminated via mentoring.
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« Reply #54 on: January 22, 2009, 09:17:57 AM »


Quote
You notice something? I did. I NEVER SAID THE FIRST GROUP OF GUYS WERE BLACK!!!

BAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

PROFILE MUCH? WHY YOU PROFILING BLACK MEN? WHAT'S WRONG W/ YOU MAN? ARE YOU APART OF THE KLAN???

{Sigh} Good one Fallacy. But if you go back an forth with someone in an intense conversation about the profiling of Black men and then you post about 2 groups of men while explaining the ethnicity of one and not the other, it will be assumed that you're talking about Black men.

Again, I can understand the profiling of Black men in a high crime area populated by Black folx Carlton. I CANNOT agree that it's ok to profile Black men outside of that high crime area as not all Black folks live in that area. If we as Black folks feed into the bullish from the media that the majority of Black men are criminals (we aren't)  or that the majority of crime is committed by Black men (it isn't), then we will be scared to be around each other as will the rest of the world. I feel safe around my people. yet I'm always on point and on guard regardless of what environment I'm in.

BTW, I've been discussing that the solution to the problem with Black males is a cultural rites of passage program along with one-on-one mentoring. Not surprised that you missed it.

From my experiences as a program director and success as a mentor engaging in one-on-one mentoring, I can honestly say that young Black males lack positive role models and Fathers and these are leading factors to their juvenille delinquency and underachieving in schools. Yes some are lazy and other factors are involved. However, much of this can be eliminated via mentoring.

HAHAHAHAHA!! FURIOUS!!!  Angry

Uh, I believe they call that....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o4/titolover21/cop.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/2pz9nw1.jpg
http://i32.tinypic.com/21jugwk.jpg


C'mon fam....  We discussed profiling blacks, whites, arabs, etc. The reason *you* concluded that group A was black is because just like all of us, you profile too... Stop w/ the political correctness & just be honest.

You have no leg to stand on because you did exact what law enforcement would do.

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« Reply #55 on: January 22, 2009, 10:33:49 PM »

Quote
C'mon fam....  We discussed profiling blacks, whites, arabs, etc. The reason *you* concluded that group A was black is because just like all of us, you profile too... Stop w/ the political correctness & just be honest.

Call it what you want. I said that I agreed that in high crime areas, you may have to profile. If I'm walking in the hood, yes I'm profiling for my own safety. But I'm doing the same thing in a white suburb where I have to worry about groups of white boys riding up to me an assaulting me over Obama's election.

The profiling of a Black man in a black high crime area was never the issue. The issue was Oscar Grant. The issue was profiling and aggressively treating every black man you see like a criminal simply because there's a high crime filled area close by. So you mean in order for me to visit an area and travel in peace I should pick an area that doesn't have a 'hood' close by because the cops would be justified in stopping me and asking me questions?

You CAN'T be serious.....
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 11:55:09 PM by da6cents » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2009, 12:04:07 AM »

Quote
I have mentored kids & worked with youth extensively but we're tremendously exaggerating the environments of black children. Only about 25% of black people are in poverty so the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY are not destitute, down & out or on some Antwone Fisher type steze.

Once again, it’s a MYTH that the only children who need help are those “living in poverty”. MOST of the kids received in ours and similar programs who have serious issues are from working and middle class homes. Get back in the game working with children. You’re needed AND out of touch (if you ever were ‘in touch’).

Quote
Oh, that's right. There's a sniper incident every night right?


Where was the profiling and aggressive handling of white boys during the sniper event? If everyone assumed the perpetrators were white, they didn’t need 50 sniper events to start profiling. They already had a profile. So why didn’t white boys get harrased?

Quote
Are you kidding? Black folx running around murdering, robbing, raping, assaulting, etc to the tune of 4X, 5X, 6X, 7X, & 8X times our numbers ON A DAILY BASIS & you think that's gonna elicit the same type of profiling as a once every decade type incident?..


Once again, white folks commit twice as many crimes as we do on a DAILY BASIS so yes it SHOULD elicit the same type of response. They commit the most crimes. Why don’t they get the same amount and type of attention if not more?

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_43.html
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Legacy
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« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2009, 04:58:30 PM »

*smh*

Damn man, are you trying to help my arguments?  You posted the data but unfortunately, you don't know how to comprehend it.

Huh

let me help you out dawg...
http://www.math.com/school/subject1/lessons/S1U2L2GL.html

You just don't get it man.. Do you understand proportions? Is that concept to hard for you?

White folx abt 66% of the population.
We are 13% of the population

The majority of violent crime is committed by men which is slightly less than half but we'll use 1/2 anyway. So, that means abt 33% of the white population & 7% of the black population.. You with me so far?


Total crime:

Whites: 69.7% - just over 2X their population size (if we're assuming this is mostly men)
Black: 28% - almost 4Xs our population size  (if we're assuming this is mostly men)

uh, not good... & it's only gonna get worse..

Violent crime:

                  White    Black
Murder:       46.9%   50.9%
Rape:          65.3%     32.5%
Robbery:     42.2%     56.3%
Ag. Assault: 63.2%  34.5%

Fam,.. .. no really fam..... this isn't even up for debate unless someone is in total denial.

See, you *think* those numbers look favorable until you remember that you have to account for population size. Thanks for playing tho.


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« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2009, 08:54:34 AM »

Quote
Damn man, are you trying to help my arguments?


I gave up on ya weak argument weeks ago. I’m trying to help YOU out as you just don’t get it. Cops, when profiling and questioning suspects don’t care about who commits violent crimes. They care about who commits the most crimes PERIOD. So while we may commit more violent crimes and do so extremely disproportionately, we don’t commit the most crimes (violent and non-violent combined). Yet we are profiled even in areas where whites commit a majority of the VIOLENT and NON-VIOLENT crimes. You think that bullshyt is ok and I think it’s……..bullshit.

Quote
Fam,.. .. no really fam..... this isn't even up for debate unless someone is in total denial.

Never saw this as a debate. More like working with the mentally handicapped. Your disproportionate argument has some relevance in regards to it being a problem for our community. No argument there. But to be used as justification for racial profiling in non-Black areas where whites commit most of the violent AND non-violent crimes? 'Silly' is the only word that comes to mind right now....
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« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2009, 10:20:29 AM »


I gave up on ya weak argument weeks ago. I’m trying to help YOU out as you just don’t get it. Cops, when profiling and questioning suspects don’t care about who commits violent crimes. They care about who commits the most crimes PERIOD. So while we may commit more violent crimes and do so extremely disproportionately, we don’t commit the most crimes (violent and non-violent combined). Yet we are profiled even in areas where whites commit a majority of the VIOLENT and NON-VIOLENT crimes. You think that bullshyt is ok and I think it’s……..bullshit.


Ok, well do you think the ridiculous amount of black-on-black crime is bullshyt because I do. I'd say even more emphatically than any profiling. I mean shouldn't we be more upset at the crime itself than the profiling?

And weak insults aside... if you look @ the actual numbers we commit more murders & robberies which deads that diversionary argument you're attempting to make. That alone is gonna get you profiled brah. We're atop the #1 & #3 most heinous crime categories in ACTUAL RAW NUMBERS (at least based on the ordering here). You could argue that aggravated assault is worse even tho there's probably some overlap.

And it's such a copout to act as if the police don't target specific crimes & areas as well as overall crime.  Ever heard of the war on drugs? Ever heard of the ATF? cmon man....

Checkout the Law Enforcement Strategy of the Clinton Administration for example..

The Clinton Administration's Law Enforcement Strategy:
http://www.justice.gov/archive/dag/pubdoc/crimestrategy.htm

Now, while the reduction of the overall crime rate is certainly a focus, they CLEARLY mention violent crime, drugs crime, the lowering of the murder rate, tougher punishment for violent offenders, the Brady Act and other laws to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, the Violence Against Women act, etc. That's very SPECIFIC & while it's not always the case, police do target specific crimes.

Either way, if you look at the proportionate numbers, the only crimes were we don't commit @ least 3Xs our proportionate size is DUI, liquor laws, & drunkenness. That's not a ringing endorsement for us man.

Ok, so how about this. Let's see if we can get black folx to reduce the overall crime (especially violent crimes) & see if the profiling ends? Either way, profiling or not, at least less black folx would be victims of violent crime right? It's a win/win.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 10:40:34 AM by Legacy » Logged

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