Men's Fear of Women's Sexuality

[Ndgo]

It appears to me that prince charming concept has morphed into the alpha male concept.

I don't see any posts where women are sitting around on their behinds waiting  to be swept off their feet. Do you? If so, please do show us WHERE.... Anything worth having is worth putting your back into it for. The problem today is that far too many women are letting men slide and feeling that a half-azzed man is better than none or their busy making excuses or propping up a man... taking responsbility for his fragile ego... shoot. And I'm ALL saying is ... forgettaboutit... 

Women are busting their behinds all day long. Now is not the time to be carrying along some limp-wristed, pudgy dead weight. All I required a man to do is his share and put it one the table so that I can examine it. If that's too much work... then  ==> NEXT.... The next one will.... From my experiences, once you set some standards, what comes next is most likely worth the wait.

Is it really too much to ask a man to actually BE a man about things?

Those nice guys need lovin', too you know..You're just going to have to do all the work and the heavy lifting.

Unless he's my personal trainer... it's NOT happening.... lol

[devineone]

I'm actually tired today. This is one of those subjects that people on this site have been arguing for 10 years or more

II what is there to argue?  It's pretty cut and dried as Ndgo said, it's not rocket science.  CB gets it, why don't you get it? Why is it when women share insight on how they feel about what they find attractive in men, the guys don't want to be receptive?  They act as though the women are being unrealistic  (chasing after unrealistic ideals) and the guys just 'can't get it'. 

I think it is the old 'flip the script' mentality'.  The guys don't want to have to change their mindset.  The hardest thing to get someone to do is to change their mind. That messes with their whole paradigm of thinking as it relates to women and dating and they don't like that if it reflects negatively on them and they know they need to do some "work'. Our brains are designed to avoid pain and seek pleasure as psychologists have taught us, which in this case, means the pain of realizing that women don't think the way men 'want' them to think when it comes to what they find attractive in men. 

As economist John Galbraith once said, "faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everybody gets busy on the proof".   Some of these men want everything to be the way 'they' want it to be when it comes to how 'they think women 'ought' to think' with regards to desirable traits in men. They just would rather not face certain truths.  I say let them continue to wallow in their own obtuseness.  We need more men like CB who 'get it' and those are the men with the 'alpha traits' that women find appealing.  

Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first it is ridiculed; in the second it is opposed; in the third it is regarded as self evident. -Arthur Schopenhauer

It appears to me that prince charming concept has morphed into the alpha male concept.

How on earth did you come up with this summation? You've totally missed the mark with this comment.  Did you just write this to hit back just to have something to say?

Both depictions are simply concepts which I hope women on this site aren't  actively pursuing. Its like trying to find the loch ness monster. The LNM may exist but chances are you won't be the person to discover it LOL.

What makes you think as a man, that you should know more about what goes on with how a woman thinks about what she finds attractive in a man?  What makes you feel that her thought processes are inferior to yours when it comes to what 'women find attractive in potential mates and who they ought to be pursuing? Why does it have to be unrealistic like the loc ness monster?  Again discrediting women's thinking because you don't want to accept what you are reading.  (A wise man would be taking notes and learning).

Some guys hear what the women are saying on this subject but they don't want to heed it because deep down they probably don't want to believe it.  Since you like to bring up Bible and Christian talk,  I'll say I'm following Jesus's example.  He presented truisms on a take or leave it basis therefore: 

He who has ears, let him hear." Matthew 11:15

"The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The Lord has made both of them" Proverbs 20:12

[devineone]

Grading on a curve?  Ndgo, you ain't right..Those nice guys need lovin', too you know..You're just going to have to do all the work and the heavy lifting..

Single woman to her friends:"Well, he really got a D minus, but with the curve he gets..Oh, hell to the no.."

CB Let's not call them 'nice guys' because  'nice guy' isn't an apt term for these guys who exhibit less than desirable traits when it comes to relating and dating women. If a guy wants a woman to do all the heavy lifting in the dating and mating game, he is not so 'nice' in my book. Hmm I wonder what would be a more descriptive identifying term?

[devineone]

True, I'd rather spend most friday nights cuddled up with my wife on the couch eating home made ice cream,

Sidebar convo here but Darn CB, homemade ice cream?!!  Man I haven't had that in years.  My grandfather made the best homemade ice cream.  When we were kids, we had fun taking turns turning the crank.  We had the ice, the rock salt, the vanilla flavoring. Wow!!  It spoiled me for life with the taste of ice cream.  Sometimes my grandmother would add freshly picked peaches to the ice cream mixture.  The only ice cream that comes close is Blue Bell old fashioned homemade vanilla ice cream and they don't even sell it up north.  When I go visit relatives in the south, I buy a 1/2 pint of that ice cream and eat to my heart's content.  I don't even eat ice cream anymore up here because I can't get anything here that taste even close.  I'll take homemade ice cream anyday over store bought!!  None of it can touch it in IMO.  Maybe I'll look for an old fashioned ice cream maker on ebay or craigslist.

[cool breeze]

Sidebar convo here but Darn CB, homemade ice cream?!!  Man I haven't had that in years.

Yeah, devineone, we do everything around here the old fashioned way..We don't even microwave popcorn..We both love to cook and it's rare that we'll buy something when we can make it ourselves at home..We even make our own soda..

Chips Ahoy!  chocolate chip cookies being the only exception--Nita loves them for some reason..Even though her home made cookies taste wayyy better in my opinion..

[devineone]

What I'm getting at is I'm not afraid to be a living, breathing, human being..These nice guys expect a woman to fall from the heavens and love them just because they're "Nice"..They think it's a sin to desire women like a man's supposed to..Okay, keep sitting there and let me know when Esther Baxter or Denyce Lawton and Bobbi Baker(the girls in the barbershop on Tyler Perry's House of Payne) show up at your crib..

Some of these men have this mentality where they think it's a sin for women to express the masculine/sexual traits they find desirable in a man.  They have a dismissive attitude (as exemplified right here in this post) towards women who dare to say, 'Hell yeah, I want an 'alpha man who can rock my world!!' When they hear that, they think women are  'unrealistic sluts chasing after an elusive ideal'.

Some men think women are only supposed to desire the so called 'good man' with the so called 'good traits' (and the good traits can't be anything sexual).  They think women are supposed to be asexual and the only desire they feel is in direct response to what the man 'makes' them feel.  Women aren't supposed to be able conjure up desire and lust for men all on their own much less talk about it. (unless they are talking about desire for their SO).   Men don't feel comfortable hearing women talk generally about desire and lust and masculine/sexual traits they find attractive in men and what they don't find attractive in men as relates to dating and mating.  They think it's male bashing and up goes their defenses.  Guys like CB know better than that. 

Sometimes I'll call her at her job on her cell and tell her that I want her naked when I get home--because it's true!! I let her know that there's no man on the planet that can match my passion for her

Heck I'm sure 'Nita appreciates that and she might call you up some days and say the same thing to you"CB,  and you being the man with the 'alpha traits, the 'nice guy with the edge that you are', would be more than happy to oblige no questions asked.

[devineone]

So if you have anything to say on the the double standards with regards to male/female sexuality, laws which attempt to control women's bodies and religion which attempts to control women's sexual freedom, let it fly! 

I think these men who attempt to control women's sexuality do so because they know deep dow inside they are lacking necessary masculine traits that appeal to women so they compensate for it by trying to control the women through these various channels, laws, social stigmas, religion etc..  Usually these men tend to be narrow-minded, conservative and pious. 

Men need to ask themselves this question when it comes to women:  What traits do you ‘show’ as a ‘man’ to the lady you’re interested in that appeals to the ‘woman’ in her?  We’re not talking about your job, your virtue, your accomplishments, your character or your so-called ‘niceness;’ we’re talking about the primal basics of man relating to the woman he wants and showing her their masculinity in a way that captivates her and draws her to him. 

If guys can’t answer this question for themselves, then they should know they've got some work to do in the mating/relating and dating game with women.  If a guy can’t captivate a woman on the primal level, women could care less about all the rest of what guys think they have to offer her that she ‘ought to appreciate getting from them.  Women may accept their offer, but still go else where to get that primal urge fulfilled.  That’s just the way it is.

[Ndgo]

Men need to ask themselves this question when it comes to women:  What traits do you ‘show’ as a ‘man’ to the lady you’re interested in that appeals to the ‘woman’ in her?  We’re not talking about your job, your virtue, your accomplishments, your character or your so-called ‘niceness;’ we’re talking about the primal basics of man relating to the woman he wants and showing her their masculinity in a way that captivates her and draws her to him. 

What a profound statement... I would love to hear the answers to that one.... I think you crystalized the whole arguement...it is about the basics... the primal basics of a man relating to the woman he wants... captivating her and drawing her near.  Probably a very daunting task for some men....

Great way to winnow out the weak ... ^5 Miss D. I have to give to you again!

(And when are you going to give us a taste of your travel observations.... give us some details on the culture, what you saw and did... c'mon now, don't keep us waiting... lol )
 

[devineone]

(And when are you going to give us a taste of your travel observations.... give us some details on the culture, what you saw and did... c'mon now, don't keep us waiting... lol )
 

Ndgo, I didn't want to assume anyone would want to hear about it.  So many things to talk about and this isn't the thread to do it of course.  I could go and on about the food alone, the receptiveness to the music, the people.  Maybe I'll pm you.  Thanks for asking.  We ended up spending 3 weeks in Paris and 1 in London.  Our prague and Germany gigs got cancelled and we picked up some extra gigs in Paris during their June 21st music festival.  Paris is simply divine in the summer, amazing, it was hard to come back.  I miss it already.  The Parisians are off the chain!  It's expensive though, the euro at the time was 1.43 to 1, the pound more than that 1.52 to 1.  (And we got paid in Euros and pounds)!! Yeah!!

[Ndgo]

Let me just pop in this thread to say.... can't wait to hear about all your comings and goings and what the "flavor" was like over there.

[philnation]

Imagine how different things might be if women ostracized men who sleep around the way they do women who sleep around.

But Phil, when women ostracize women who sleep around, it's done to protect their territory..The majority of women know that they will be punished and socially isolated by their female counterparts if they were to fully embrace their sexuality..

That doesn't change the fact that they do it.  Hence, why I scoff at talk about men and some sexual "double standard" as if it's just men who engage in it.  Women are every bit as guilty of the harsh social judgments MsH talked about in the original post and you didn't deny it at all.

[devineone]

I’m probably going to regret this and I’m not trying to pick but I just have to ask.

Is this all you got out of this thread topic and all you came on to contribute?  The ‘So women do it too.” response as relates to one point harsh social judgments? 
What about the rest of the points and discussion on Men’s fear of women’s sexuality?  Surely a man of your intellect can post something besides the ‘So women do it too’ response. (And I agree some women do engage in harsh social judgments).

Sorry but this is something my 11 year old niece says whenever she gets called out for something by her parents.
When her mother gets on to her about something the first thing she says is, “But so in-so does it too.  She totally misses the lesson because she’s too busy being defensive. She’s too busy justifying in her mind, that as long as other people do it, don’t call her out for doing it too.  That’s as much as she can comprehend and at this point, it's her main concern.  But then she’s only 11 and we're hoping as she matures, her thinking and reasoning skills will get deeper and she'll get past her habit of the automatic response of 'So-in-so does it too.'   I'm wondering what’s your reason for responding like this and what does it add to the discussion?   

Since you brought up ostracizing in dating as relates to women shunning  men who sleep around, I'd like to ask you a few questions to gain insight on your thoughts.

1.What's your reason for thinking it should fall to the women to ostracize the guys that 'you' deem to be less than worthy to be out there dating/sleeping around? 

2.What is the reason that guys like you can't take on the responsibility of ostracizing those guys?   

3.Who benefits if women do the ostracizing? 

4.What's your reason against a guy or a woman having sexual experience?

[philnation]

Is this all you got out of this thread topic and all you came on to contribute?

I must have missed where on here it says one is supposed to write a dissertation on every single word that relates to the topic on which one posts.  Sometimes there's just one or two things either worth commenting on or on which I'm at liberty to comment; sometimes the entire subject fits one of those descriptions.  MsH's original post fit the former.

Since you brought up ostracizing in dating as relates to women shunning  men who sleep around, I'd like to ask you a few questions to gain insight on your thoughts.

Considering the flawed premise evident from the leading nature of several of them, it doesn't seem like you're really trying to gain insight.

1.What's your reason for thinking it should fall to the women to ostracize the guys that 'you' deem to be less than worthy to be out there dating/sleeping around? 

This question obviously doesn't want an answer as it has two flawed premises.  For one, I never said or implied that women should ostracize men who sleep around, or that it should only be women who do that.  Additionally, this has nothing to do with the worthiness of guys to me.

It's quite simple, really.  Women don't judge guys as harshly as they judge other women for the number of partners they have.  It would be one thing if they didn't judge other women at all, but they do - so they're just as guilty of this double standard as men are.  My original point in mentioning it was that while there might be things that fit MsH's thesis with this thread topic, the sexual double standard doesn't because it's not just men who are guilty of it.

Additionally, many women complain that guys "just want sex", but a guy with dozens of past partners isn't a deal-breaker for a lot of women, and they'll complain even after dating such men and despite having clear signs that those men just wanted sex and nothing to do with a relationship.  Something about that doesn't seem to add up; it's like an employer complaining that "all these people we're interviewing just want money, they don't want the responsibility of the job," but then hiring some of those same people and complaining about the quality of people they have working for them.

I never said women should ostracize men who sleep around, only that nothing is stopping them from doing it just like they do with other women who sleep around and that if they ever did, the dynamics in dating and relationships might be just a little different.  The alternative is that women could just stop harshly judging other women who sleep around, in which case they'd have the moral high ground to say that only men are guilty of this.  (And then it would fit MsH's thesis here.)

2.What is the reason that guys like you can't take on the responsibility of ostracizing those guys?

I'll answer that with three questions that show the flawed premise in this: (1) Who said guys can't do this?  (2) Where was it said?  (3) How do you know I don't do/haven't done that?

3.Who benefits if women do the ostracizing? 

Realistically, all of us would because relationships could then be in a better state.  There are two things behind this.  One is that women have enormous power to influence dating, because they choose men.  The other is that in life, people do what works.

If it became uncool or even problematic for guys to seek out women just for sex because lots of women were more discriminating in how they share themselves - whether it was refusing to consummate the relationship for an undetermined amount of time or by not dating/staying with a guy specifically because he had slept around - things would change fast.  It's not unlike how quickly things would change if teenage girls gravitated more towards the Valedictorian-type than the proverbial captain of the football team.  If that ever happened, how quickly would most high school guys be on top of their books instead of wanting so badly to be jocks?

In life, people do what works.  Right now, there is no social penalty for men who get with women for sex only and thus sleep with dozens of women; even other women gladly date them and attempt relationships with them, despite all the obvious risks that seem pretty obvious.  In fact, men who are discriminating in how they share themselves and thus don't sleep with even a dozen women are often ridiculed by women.  As such, sleeping around works for men.  If there was ever a time where large numbers of women would shy away from or flat-out avoid men who do that and/or socially ostracize them in the way they ostracize other women, a change would be required because seeking out sex and sleeping around with dozens of women wouldn't work anymore.  (It's already obvious that the medical risks of doing this - HIV, other STDs, unwanted pregnancies - are not going to be a deterrent.)

I'm sure you're going to come back and talk about how we should teach men to be better, yadda yadda yadda.  I get that, and none of what I have said here stands in contradiction to that.  I simply look at reality, and the reality is that women are in a position of enormous power - nothing has the power to change men's behavior in a dating context more than women being more/less accepting of something they do.  You can be "right" and go on and on about how men should change - but you can also accept the status quo in dating and relationships because as I just explained, making a change won't work for men because what men who sleep around do works.  In this scenario, I'm quite happy not being "right", I'd rather be on the more practical side of things.  Besides, for years the common discourse on dating has been to hold men accountable and blame all problems on them, but not to hold women accountable for their part even though it takes two to tango - and how's that working for us?  We need only to look at the sorry state of romantic relationships today to get an answer to that question.

4.What's your reason against a guy or a woman having sexual experience?

I have nothing against that, so there's no answer to this.

[MsHeartBeat]

Well people, after last week's radio broadcast entitled "The Power of The Pu$$y" I received a letter from a male listener that castigated women for daring to enjoy a variety of sexual experiences outside of marriage. 

Here is the letter in its disgusting entirety.  To read my response, click the link
The Male Struggle for Control of Female Sexuality

Dear Deborrah:
I enjoyed your show the other day on "The Power of the Pu$$y", but I had a couple of questions and comments that I hope you have time to consider.

There are a couple of different perspectives I would like to give since I didn’t hear them on the show. The first one has to do with the inherent value that is tied to sex and the gender involved. For a man to be sexually promiscuous (which I don’t condone), he has to have something going for him. Either he has a good understanding of women, a good mouthpiece, some kind of power, fame, wealth, virility, or a combination of any of these things. For a woman to be sexually promiscuous, all she needs to have is a functioning vagina and consent.

Taking this further, an average man would have to have something extraordinary about him to be able to sleep with 300 different women in a year. Any average women could sleep with 300 different men in a year. Probably, ANY woman could (emphasis mine).   

In general, while I don’t think that there is anything valuable demonstrated by a man who goes around a sleeps with a bunch of women, there is implicit value in him being ABLE to do such a thing. For women, this just isn’t the case–they can pretty much have sex whenever, wherever, with a good percentage of men to choose from.

For women, there is implicit value from them being discerning and discriminating when choosing to have sex. So, when a woman feels empowered to express her sexuality it can be viewed as her lowering her implicit value.   

My other comment touches on a man’s insecurity/ego. Not that it is right, but some men want to be "the best" in what they do. This extends to all things, including sex. The average guy probably doesn’t want to marry a woman and know in the back of his head that she has had way better sex than what he is capable of.

I think a lot of women have a tendency to say, "just get over it", and maybe men should, but at the core men want to excel at things, especially under the roof of his own home. I don’t know if this analogy is valid or not, but consider this: Would you or the average woman you know want to marry a man whom you don’t inspire love from when compared to a past relationship of his? Say this prospective husband treats you very well, doesn’t leave you wanting for anything, has strong character/integrity, etc., but he is a bit intellectual and not so much artistic. However, in a previous relationship you find out that the woman inspired him to love so much that he felt compelled to write poetry and paint for HER.

With you, however, he loves you but you don’t create the kind of spark that someone else did — would this bother you and steer you away from a serious relationship with him? I don’t know if that analogy is valid, but my point is that a man values highly being the apple of his woman’s eye. Unfortunately, whether it is culture or biology, the top of his list of things that demonstrate his value often seems to be his sexuality.

Likewise, wouldn’t a woman want to know that the man she wants to have a serious relationship with has surrendered his heart and loves her more than any other? Ultimately, we all have pasts and shouldn’t judge each other for what we’ve done. The past does matter, however, when it matters.

I thought it was a bit ironic that at the end of the show, you or your guest mentioned how spiritually significant it is to let a man enter a woman during intercourse and to be discriminating because of all of the spiritual "junk" a man could leave behind after the act.

Now, I don’t necessarily believe in the spiritual ties during a typical sexual act, but since you do: wouldn’t you think it is perfectly reasonable for a man who is considering a serious relationship to be tentative about a woman who has let a number of men intermingle spirits with her? It just seemed like you made a contradictory statement at the end of the show when you mentioned the spiritual side of things.   

If a woman is going around sleeping with many men, wouldn’t she be more susceptible to having a lot of potential negative energy from the men she was with?

And tying in to the original theme of the show, which touches on the issue of why is it ‘bad’ for a woman to be in touch with her sexuality, experiment, enjoy it and so forth, if she has had many male partners who may have deposited their negative energy/spirituality into her, shouldn’t a women’s sexual history become very relevant to a man who will want to be in a relationship with her?

Not that she would transfer that energy to the man during sex, per se, but just that this negative spiritual energy may manifest itself in any type of interaction within the framework of the relationship. Or is the spiritual energy transferred during sex just benign? Anyways, thanks for your response and I look forward to reading through your website.

Unmade

To read my response, click the link
The Male Struggle for Control of Female Sexuality

[MsHeartBeat]

And Phil, I have this to say about your defense of the double sexual standard as stated here:

It's quite simple, really.  Women don't judge guys as harshly as they judge other women for the number of partners they have.  It would be one thing if they didn't judge other women at all, but they do - so they're just as guilty of this double standard as men are.  My original point in mentioning it was that while there might be things that fit MsH's thesis with this thread topic, the sexual double standard doesn't because it's not just men who are guilty of it.

That logic is skewed Phil.

For one thing, women adopted their belief system because of the double standard!  See, if there were no shame, no ridicule, no being labeled and called a skank, a ho, a skeezer, a slut or a c u n t when one has sex with a variety of men, and if one were still treated exactly the same by marriage-minded men, then there would be no reason to have a double standard.  But that is not what happens.  Men created the double standard, and men are the perpetuators of the double sexual standard.  Women are not (at least in our example) marrying women.  It is MEN that are using vaginal purity as their primary criteria for determining a womans worth and value in the the dating and marriage market.

Please read the article I wrote so that you get a full understanding of how deeply ingrained these double standards are in American society, and so that you understand how male focus on what is between a woman's legs is hurting not just young women, but men as well.