The Demise of Dating

[devineone]

Interesting editoral that ran in the NYT.  Man I think about what my tween nieces are faced with and I shudder.   The social scene has definitely changed and I'm not sure it is a change for the better, but maybe I'm just from the old school of thought.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/13/opinion/13blow.html
December 13, 2008
Op-Ed Columnist
The Demise of Dating
By CHARLES M. BLOW
The paradigm has shifted. Dating is dated. Hooking up is here to stay.

(For those over 30 years old: hooking up is a casual sexual encounter with no expectation of future emotional commitment. Think of it as a one-night stand with someone you know.)

According to a report released this spring by Child Trends, a Washington research group, there are now more high school seniors saying that they never date than seniors who say that they date frequently. Apparently, it’s all about the hookup.

When I first heard about hooking up years ago, I figured that it was a fad that would soon fizzle. I was wrong. It seems to be becoming the norm.

I should point out that just because more young people seem to be hooking up instead of dating doesn’t mean that they’re having more sex (they’ve been having less, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention) or having sex with strangers (they’re more likely to hook up with a friend, according to a 2006 paper in the Journal of Adolescent Research).

To help me understand this phenomenon, I called Kathleen Bogle, a professor at La Salle University in Philadelphia who has studied hooking up among college students and is the author of the 2008 book, “Hooking Up: Sex, Dating and Relationships on Campus.”

It turns out that everything is the opposite of what I remember. Under the old model, you dated a few times and, if you really liked the person, you might consider having sex. Under the new model, you hook up a few times and, if you really like the person, you might consider going on a date.

I asked her to explain the pros and cons of this strange culture. According to her, the pros are that hooking up emphasizes group friendships over the one-pair model of dating, and, therefore, removes the negative stigma from those who can’t get a date. As she put it, “It used to be that if you couldn’t get a date, you were a loser.” Now, she said, you just hang out with your friends and hope that something happens.

The cons center on the issues of gender inequity. Girls get tired of hooking up because they want it to lead to a relationship (the guys don’t), and, as they get older, they start to realize that it’s not a good way to find a spouse. Also, there’s an increased likelihood of sexual assaults because hooking up is often fueled by alcohol.

That’s not good. So why is there an increase in hooking up? According to Professor Bogle, it’s: the collapse of advanced planning, lopsided gender ratios on campus, delaying marriage, relaxing values and sheer momentum.

It used to be that “you were trained your whole life to date,” said Ms. Bogle. “Now we’ve lost that ability — the ability to just ask someone out and get to know them.”

Now that’s sad.

[cool breeze]

It turns out that everything is the opposite of what I remember. Under the old model, you dated a few times and, if you really liked the person, you might consider having sex. Under the new model, you hook up a few times and, if you really like the person, you might consider going on a date.

You know, they say a hard head makes for a soft behind..When are these modern day women going to realize that it's in their best interest to refrain from sexual encounters of a casual nature? I mean, it ain't rocket science, you know? Sheesh..All that talk about women having greater sex drives than men and having greater sexual appetites than men is bullshyt..

Look around you: If it were true that women had equal or greater sexual desires than men, why do men pay for sex? Why do men create and consume the majority of porn? Why do men use sex to sell everything from mouth wash to cutting boards? Is it because women enjoy watching half-naked women sell them stuff? Well, some do, but the vast majority of that stuff is for men..No blonde hottie leaning against a Lexus makes the average straight woman wanna run out and buy that car..

Do women like sex? Of course they do..Now, do women really want or desire as much sex as men do? I say no, but maybe I'm wrong..Although the number of men calling radio stations and complaining about women not willing to settle down is on the rise, it's still miles away from the number of women complaining that they can't find a man willing to settle down..Most men are too busy calling sports talk radio and complaining about Brett Favre or some other pro jock who cost them money in the fantasy sports pool..

Let's ask the bad boys, the players and pimps out there what they think about hooking up, shall we?

Wannabe Pimp: Why should I get married to this woman who is willing to sleep with me,  be a baby-momma and have my kids without a commitment? I'ma continue to ride the freak train until I'm as old as Hugh Hefner!! ALL aboard!!

Any female who falls for the "hooking up" culture fails Ms. Heartbeat's Ho-Test..No man worth his salt is going to make a Ho a housewife..So, any woman who thinks that she can "date like a man" or have loads of sexual escapades and still be considered a high quality woman is kidding herself..She's weeding herself out of the wifey pool..

[devineone]

When are these modern day women going to realize that it's in their best interest to refrain from sexual encounters of a casual nature?
Let's ask the bad boys, the players and pimps out there what they think about hooking up, shall we?
Wannabe Pimp: Why should I get married to this woman who is willing to sleep with me,  be a baby-momma and have my kids without a commitment? I'ma continue to ride the freak train until I'm as old as Hugh Hefner!! ALL aboard!!
..No man worth his salt is going to make a Ho a housewife..She's weeding herself out of the wifey pool..

The same chastisement goes for the wannabe pimps, playas and the bad boys.  None of them make husbandly material for a decent woman.  When are these type of men going to learn that behaviors they engage in now are not attractive to the "Worthy women" they may want down the road.  While they are out there ho-hopping around, a Worthy Woman is watching them and saying to herself, "No way would I give him the time of day.  A leopard does not change its spots." (In most cases).

So let's not just chastise the "modern" women who engage in these behaviors.  They aren't out there doing it by themselves.  The onus falls on both sexes.  I'd like to hear you light into the men a little CB.  I think it's great how you're telling the women that they need to act better and stop the "modern dating like a man", that's a good message.   But what about these guys? 

Tell these men how they need to act as well.  Tell the wannabe pimps, playas, and others how NOT to be if they are looking to dip into the "wifey pool".  No worthy woman would give men of this ilk the time of day.  I know I wouldn't.   Where is the message coming from a seemingly upstanding guy like yourself telling the guys to clean up their act and stop being pimps, and playas?  Where is the message telling the guys who act like this, that it doesn't exactly make them "hubby" material?

[cool breeze]

lol..Devineone, I have lit into the men..If I seem harsh with the ladies it's because the men that want to play have no incentive to change given the current climate..The dating game to them has become like shooting fish in a barrel..The only way they're going to change their behavior one iota is if women re-assert control over the sexual playing field..In other words, make them work for sex instead of handing it to them on a silver platter..No committed relationship--no sex for you..

Now, I ain't no prude..When I was a single cat and out there I was trying to meet and occasionally sleep with women that I found attractive( I am a man you know ) but I wasn't trying to lead nobody on..I didn't knock nobody up and then break camp--leaving the woman to raise a child alone..I didn't sucker no church going celibate type with a phony marriage proposal to get her into bed..If we went out and everything was cool and you were digging me and I was digging you back--after a few dates I would, ahem, make my move..lol..But I sometimes went a whole month, sometimes longer without anything more than an occasional kiss..But i wasn't trying to build a harem of females like most of these guys are doing nowadays..

What happens is most guys don't have the guts to stick to their guns..In other words, I was a nice guy with a sex drive, but I was a gentleman..No need for games or Jedi mind tricks..I turned down more easy opportunities than most men and I have no regrets..But that's because of the example I was able to model myself after--my dad..No pimps, no hustlers were my role model..My role model was in the house that I lived in..He told me early on that a real man didn't blindly follow the crowd and that sleeping with one hundred women didn't make you more of a man than the next guy..Do you provide for your family? Is your home safe for your wife and children? Can your community count on you? These are a few of the traits that a real man has..Now, if you happen to have a voracious sexual appetite and you need more than one woman and you're a married man? The be discreet about it and don't bring anything home to your family if you must run the streets..Or better yet, remain single until you're through running around trying to be Playboy numero uno..

You see, the whole "bad boy vs nice guy" issue is a non-issue for me because like you said," While they are out there ho-hopping around, a Worthy Woman  is watching them and saying to herself, "No way would I give him the time of day.  A leopard does not change its spots."

So, since the ho-hopper is automatically eliminated by the majority of worthy women like yourself, the question becomes how do the worthy women and the worthy men meet? Some women would rather try and change a leopard into a one woman house cat and we all know how that turns out..Those men need to be ignored by the majority of worthy women until they prove that they're ready to be in committed relationships..Unless you as a woman feel the need to gamble with your love life, your health and your sanity..

If I was a woman? Ha!! These so-called pimps and players would be told to find some other fool to play their little kiddie games with..

[devineone]

lol..Devineone, I have lit into the men..If I seem harsh with the ladies it's because the men that want to play have no incentive to change given the current climate..The dating game to them has become like shooting fish in a barrel..The only way they're going to change their behavior one iota is if women re-assert control over the sexual playing field..In other words, make them work for sex instead of handing it to them on a silver platter..No committed relationship--no sex for you..
..I didn't sucker no church going celibate type with a phony marriage proposal to get her into bed..
If I was a woman? Ha!! These so-called pimps and players would be told to find some other fool to play their little kiddie games with..

CB, thanks for sharing the teachings of your father even though I still don't see you preaching to the brothas like you do to the sistahs.   In your last statement, I think that a woman telling a so-called pimp and playa to find someone else to play their games with isn't helping the overall social situation of today.  I wouldn't wish men of this ilk on any woman!  And given the opportunity, I'd tell them about themselves.  They may not want to hear it, but I would have planted a seed.  Just like I told a guy back this summer who was trying to put the moves on me on the first date.  I told him about his behavior and how it came across.  He looked at me like I was crazy. Guys don't want to be told, but if I don't do it, who will?  Teachable moments I say. He can't say he didn't know at least from me. 

By not coming down on the guys the way you do with the women, (at least since I've been on the forum), it's almost as if you're giving the guys a pass to be bad boys.  It's like you're saying, 'Well you know how men are so just avoid them." Why is it now acceptable for guys to have such low dating and social morals in how they interact with women?  It wasn't always like that. Why not go a step further and school these brothas.  Just like you say men don't have any incentive to do better because of the easy access to sex, well women don't have any incentive to act better because of the easy access to far too many guys who act like pimps, playas and bad guys.  It cuts both ways but you seem to pin the responsibility for better behavior solely  on the woman more so than the man.  That's highly unfair.  Women can't be ho's without pimps, playas and bad guys, and guys can't be those things without ho's, they are connected and both need to work on their behavior equally.
The way you talk about the women reminds me of southern patriarchal sensibilities.   I recognize it coming from the south.

The guy can misbehave, but it's the woman who get's called out for it.  The guy is just being a "man" it's the woman who is labeled a "ho".  My mom used to have a saying, "Men are made to ask, and it's up to the woman to say yeah or nay".  I asked her once, "How come it's ok for the guy to ask a woman for sex if he knows it's wrong just like the woman knows it's wrong?"  I got popped in the mouth for 'questioning her'. I was about 14.    She never did answer my question.

I remember being in church when I was a child and it was the woman who was made to stand in front of the church to ask for forgiveness if she had a child out of wedlock, and wanted to come back to the church and be accepted again.  Nobody ever called the man out for his behavior. 
Women ain't out there engaging in trifling behavior by themselves.  Guys need to act like gentleman instead of pimps, playas, and bad guys  just as much as women need to learn to act like ladies instead of ho's.  Nothing wrong with men striving to be better men, just as you were raised, regardless of what external factors are out there to possibly influence their behavior. 

And no woman regardless of if she is a church going celibate type or not should be suckered by a guy who just wants to sleep with her by pretending he wants to marry her first.

[cool breeze]

devineone, you're right..Since you've been here at Askheartbeat, I may have come down too hard on the ladies..I'll try to be more balanced in the future..There was a topic in the Brother's corner where the cats here were dropping knowledge for the younger dudes out there on how to be the man that a woman needs..

You're right, it may be time to challenge these cats young and old to be the men that our community needs..Far too many of them don't get an opposing message to counter the garbage being spewed by the media and from the mouths of the pimps and players..But with our President Elect being a family man, that may change..

[devineone]

You're right, it may be time to challenge these cats young and old to be the men that our community needs..Far too many of them don't get an opposing message to counter the garbage being spewed by the media and from the mouths of the pimps and players..But with our President Elect being a family man, that may change..

I agree CB, but lets remember that pimps, playas and bad guys aren't always the ones who are externally obvious.  They're not always the ones we see hanging in the 'hood' and on the proverbial street corner.  They come from many socioeconomic classes.  In fact the more successful a guy is externally, the better his chances of acting like a pimp, playa and bad guy (He is just more covert about it.)  It's easy for a woman to see the "obvious snake and avoid it if she is sensible.  It's the snake lying in ambush that is harder to avoid. 

I've read posts from a few guys even on this forum that gave me pause in their seemingly misogynous and disrespectful attitude towards the women they've encountered and these are college educated successful men. External success has little to do with how you are as a person in how you treat women. Yet I haven't heard the guys like yourself say anything about it.  I was appalled when I read these comments made several months ago.  It's sad that guys who can be so successful in one area of their lives, yet harbor such contempt and disrespect for women and have such negative views in how they view social interactions between men and women. 

http://www.askheartbeat.com/talksmack/index.php/topic,2272.msg26671.html#msg26671
Men use women in relationships.  Women use men in relationships.  Men use men in relationships.  Women use women in relationships.  There is no difference in volume or degree. the only differences are what tools each individual has at their disposal to play the game, and what each wants from others.  Supply and demand.  All people --no, all animals--(at least those with any sense) use whatever means they have at their disposal to get what they want.  It's not necessarily nefarious, it just is what it is.

And if he's paying for dates, guess what he's after?   BINGO!  Pucci!  Maybe not tonight, maybe not Saturday night, but oh yes, I am after it.  And if you ain't trying to give it up, I will take my date-paying for self to someone who will.  Supply and demand.  Why pay more than the going rate? 

Chris Rock said men want food, sex and silence.  Feed me, f**k me and STFU.  To whoever brought up call girls--call girls supply that.  Of men who pay for sex, most don't pay for the sex per se, they pay for the woman to LEAVE after the sex.  No strings.  No shopping for window treatments on weekends, or visits to the in-laws', or anything else.  A service. 

Another newsflash to those women who think that there is something special about them by virtue of that thing between their legs---that they can control a man or keep him or whatever because "it's so gooood."   It is good, it's pucci.  But it's not special.  They're all pretty much the same.
http://www.askheartbeat.com/talksmack/index.php/topic,2272.msg26685.html#msg26685
HAHAHAHAHA!! They still think the pusci equals entitlements!! GUESS WHAT? NOPE!!!

It's 2008!!! Your pusci entitlement coupons are EXPIRED!!!!  

[cool breeze]

I've read posts from a few guys even on this forum that gave me pause in their seemingly misogynous and disrespectful attitude towards the women they've encountered and these are college educated successful men. External success has little to do with how you are as a person in how you treat women. Yet I haven't heard the guys like yourself say anything about it.  I was appalled when I read these comments made several months ago.  It's sad that guys who can be so successful in one area of their lives, yet harbor such contempt and disrespect for women and have such negative views in how they view social interactions between men and women.

Devineone, if you don't mind, could you post some more examples of the disrespectful attitudes of the offending males? I really don't think the site has any cats who are misogynistic, but I might be mistaken..

[devineone]

Devineone, if you don't mind, could you post some more examples of the disrespectful attitudes of the offending males? I really don't think the site has any cats who are misogynistic, but I might be mistaken..

CB are you saying that the comments I posted are fine and that you see nothing wrong with what they’ve said?  If that’s what you think, then there is no need for me to pull up other comments to show as an example since you and I seem to see things differently.  I personally wouldn’t be interested in dating a man with this type of attitude towards women which is reflected in their comments here.

I found these comments show a contemptuous and disrespectful attitude towards the women they’ve encountered and to a degree a feeling of anger too.  Maybe misogyny is too strong a word, but the attitude that's reflected isn't great even taking the mysogynous part out. (And there are varying degrees of 'hateful feelings). Mysogyny doesn't always have to be extreme behavior).  I certainly don't detect any warm and fuzzy feelings towards women from their comments. 

Going by the comments, rather than dating a woman to get to know her, they were just going out on dates for the sex they can get out of the woman as soon as possible and with the least amount of effort on their part.  To them, women who don’t give ‘it up quickly’, they view as them using sex to control them.  To these guys a woman's body, even after she's shared it with the guy is "nothing special."  They want the sex, but at the same time, they have the dismissive mindset of it being "nothing special".  (That's contempt for you).  Based on these comments,  these guys are not interested in dating for a relationship, they're interested in dating for a "sexship".  It’s interesting that you don’t see that, but you can see the negative behavior in the women when it comes to their attitude and behaviors in dating as your comments often reflect.

I personally don’t date guys just to get sex or dinner out of them.  I initially go out with a guy because I’m interested in getting to know ALL of him and seeing where that can lead and not what I can get out of him.  I hold guys to the same standards of attitude that I myself have when I interact with them socially.  Sex comes last for me, not because I'm trying to control a guy with it, but because I don't want a primarily 'sex-based situation with a dude.  I realize the range of emotional involvement contributes to a rich and rewarding sexually monogamous relationship and that it takes time to get to know the person and not just from a physical standpoint. It is the emotions that fuel the intensity of the experience. The body is simply the vehicle.

These dudes from what I've read of their comments here are nowhere in that mindset. They just want to date to get some sex.


I know that there are some women out there who behave differently and apparently these are the women these guys are familiar with, but I’m not one of them.  I’ve experienced this type of behavior and attitude far too often from guys I’ve encountered on dates and that is just earlier this year!  It’s sad because with some guys (at least in my experience), they’ve become so used to easily “getting it” from women that a sense of entitlement towards “easy sex” has become the pervasive attitude now.  As the article said, sex first and "maybe" date later. 

[cool breeze]

Devineone, I didn't say that those comments were fine, I just wanted to see some more examples of what you thought were misogynistic..Truth be told, I don't condone the way a lot of men speak to women--here in cyberspace or in real life..

Maybe I'm getting too cynical and lazy and I need to push myself to correct inappropriate behavior from men more..

I found these comments show a contemptuous and disrespectful attitude for the women they’ve encountered.  Rather than dating a woman to get to know her, they were just going out on dates for the sex they can get out of the woman and as soon as possible and with the least amount of effort on their part.  To them, women who don’t give ‘it up quickly’, they view as them using sex to control them.   They're not interested in dating for a relationship, they're interested in dating for a "sexship".  It’s interesting that you don’t see that, but you see negative behavior in the women when it comes to their attitude and behaviors in dating as your comments often reflect.

Devineone, perhaps I've been too hard on the ladies, but the fact remains that if a man says or shows that he's not interested in anything but sex, my advice has always been: NEXT!! If he's not interested in you as a person but wants to sleep with you? NEXT!! Truth be told, there are plenty of fish in the sea, so ladies grab your bait and tackle box if some yahoo thinks that because he paid for dinner he's entitled to sex..

As Legacy would say GTFOH..And that's what the ladies should tell the majority of these yahoos who think that they're god's gift to women..These trifling, no game having', penny pinching, cheap, punk azz wannabe players..Weaklings..Not fit to be in the gene pool truth be told..How they attract women in the first place is a mystery to me and they should thank God that I don't have a say because I would dayum sure guarantee their line would end with them..

In fact you said it best and pointed out their weaknesses..

Rather than dating a woman to get to know her, they were just going out on dates for the sex they can get out of the woman and as soon as possible and with the least amount of effort on their part."

..Now, does that sound like a real man? Does that sound like a man worth the effort to rehabilitate? I say hell to the no..

I say, that if a mofo shows you early on that he's got a one track mind and only one thing in mind, NEXT that loser and be thankful that you found out early..Charge it to the game and keep on keepin' on..

[devineone]

Devineone, perhaps I've been too hard on the ladies, but the fact remains that if a man says or shows that he's not interested in anything but sex, my advice has always been: NEXT!! If he's not interested in you as a person but wants to sleep with you? NEXT!! Truth be told, there are plenty of fish in the sea, so ladies grab your bait and tackle box if some yahoo thinks that because he paid for dinner he's entitled to sex..

Believe me CB,
I really do know that you advocate for women.  I was so impressed by your posts early on, (before they were removed from this forum), that I collected all of your advice for women and even sent you all of the sayings you had from ‘05 to spring of this year in a PM. I called it CB’s Pearls of Wisdom.  Did you get it?  I found what you said so valuable that I wanted my nieces and women friends to know about it.    I thank you for being one of the few brothas who truly seem to care about the well being of the sistahs.

That said, IMO, It’s not enough to just keep telling women, stop messing with the wanna be pimps, playas and the bad boys to just “Next them”. We also need to start emphasizing the traits of what constitutes a real man.  We need to start telling the pimps and playas how to STOP acting and how to START behaving. Just like you’re telling the women how to stop acting and start behaving.  It’s not enough to recognize bad behaviors, now how about correcting them?  Just as I schooled that guy who thought he was entitled to get sex from me on the first date earlier this summer.

And that's what the ladies should tell the majority of these yahoos who think that they're god's gift to women..These trifling, no game having', penny pinching, cheap, punk azz wannabe players..Weaklings..Not fit to be in the gene pool truth be told..How they attract women in the first place is a mystery to me and they should thank God that I don't have a say because I would dayum sure guarantee their line would end with them..

See now you’ve got it down with identifying the type of men women should avoid, now how about emphasizing to these men, how they SHOULD behave and what they NEED to start doing if they want to be "real men".  When women are exposed to playas the majority of the time, then are they even capable of knowing and recognizing that there are other choices out there?  Do they even know what traits to look for?  This is where I think the dialogue falls short. 

Now, does that sound like a real man? Does that sound like a man worth the effort to rehabilitate? I say hell to the no..
I say, that if a mofo shows you early on that he's got a one track mind and only one thing in mind, NEXT that loser and be thankful that you found out early..Charge it to the game and keep on keepin' on..

What about also saying, "And as for the guys out there acting like wanna be pimps and playas, and bad boys you need to stop doing xyz and start doing etc..."  Again the dialogue falls short when it comes to correcting the "playa's behavior and pointing out to them what they need to start doing and stop doing.  You seem only interested in telling the women what they need to start doing and stop doing.  Guys could use some detailed instruction too.    It shouldn't just be one-sided with instruction aimed only at telling the women to "Next the playas".  What about telling the men what they need to be doing other than being playas, pimps and bad boys in words and attitudes (as attested to by the comments I posted here), and in deeds?  They need to hear that talk too.

I think many women have either forgotten or don’t know what a “real man” is and how he behaves because they haven’t been exposed to enough of them.  These guys are becoming a rare species.  That old adage is true.  A good man is hard to find, but you can find a playa lurking around every corner.

IMO being a playa is more than the narrowed definition of a guy who sleeps around with many women; it’s also about their attitude towards women, themselves, and life in general.  The playa name is apt because they are really little boys who are “playing around in grown men bodies.  They haven’t developed and matured enough in the ways required of a man who knows how to have a healthy adult relationship with their SO.

Playas are usually self-centered guys who derive their manhood not by what they can give, but what they can get from the people who care for them.  They generally view women as exploitable and replaceable.  Playas see themselves as the ultimate prize to be won and women have to always compete to win them.  Playas don’t cherish, or love because they are incapable of deep abiding emotion because it’s all about them getting their needs met. 

I think when women start defining and valuing the difference between what constitutes a “Man” from a “Playa” then they will hopefully make better decisions about who they allow to be a part of their lives.  Just because a guy can sex them up, doesn’t make him a “ real man” at least not in my book.  These lessons take time and unfortunately some not so great “experiences” to learn.

But with our President Elect being a family man, that may change..

I also agree that having Obama in the White House is a great role model.  Obama has spoken about Fatherhood and responsibilities and he is obviously a devoted loving husband and father and he is young enough and hip enough to hopefully be influential.  Heck he's even spoken against guys walking around wearing their pants down around their legs with their azzes stuck out. 
http://www.nypost.com/seven/11042008/news/politics/kick_in_pants_from_o_136815.htm
Obama's comment: "Here is my attitude: I think people passing a law against people wearing sagging pants is a waste of time. We should be focused on creating jobs, improving our schools, health care, dealing with the war in Iraq , and anybody, any public official, that is worrying about sagging pants probably needs to spend some time focusing on real problems out there. Having said that, brothers should pull up their pants. You are walking by your mother, your grandmother, your underwear is showing. What's wrong with that? Come on. There are some issues that we face, that you don't have to pass a law, but that doesn't mean folks can't have some sense and some respect for other people and, you know, some people might not want to see your underwear -- I'm one of them."

[Starchild]

OK, let me jump in here.  I have a number of comments on this.

1.  DevineOne, You have developed a pattern of doing this and I find it disrespectful and, frankly, rather disgusting.  What you do is to take comments made by a person in a particular thread--unrelated to whatever thread or viewpoint you are currently pushing--and carry it over with you to another thread and use it as some sort of ammunition to try to bend others to your opinions in the new thread.  There are a lot of problems with this.  The most basic problem is that you take comments out of context and apply them elsewhere.  I see that you've quoted me in your despicable list.  The thread you quoted me from was about people using others for sex and other things...specifically, it contained a lot of commentary concerning the motives people (men) have when dating, throwing money around and doing things like that.  What kinds of things people should be cognizant of.  I said that HUMANS have a tendency to use what they have at their disposal to get what they want.   Those with power, money and wealth use that.  Those with charm, talent and good looks use that.  In fact, I specifically said men do it to women; women do it to men; men do it to men and women do it to women.  What's misogynistic about that?  Because I said that women should understand that the simple fact that they have a pucci doesn't make them special?  It's true--just as certain men need to understand that their scrotum size doesn't make them God's gift to the world.  All men are not equal and neither are all women.  That is the point.  Is that misogynistic?  Because I don't think people are to be worshipped and treated like kings and queens just because of some physical trait of theirs?  Certainly, you don't consider a [take your pick of women you consider unsavory] to be of the same value, relationship wise, as you are?  If you say you do, you're either a liar or delusional.

 

2.  Second--you make LOTS of assumptions.  This is an internet message board where people exchange thoughts, ideas and often---play devil's advocate.  To assume that you know anything about the lives of anyone who posts on here because of a small number of posts that they have made, directed to a particular issue, is the very height of self absorption.  How dare you sit here and have the gall to even think you know or can discern anything of my thoughts towards women based on that comment?  The thread wasn't about women, it was about people using others to fulfill their wants and needs.

3.  None of my comments were about any of MY experiences, they were all hypothetical and rhetorical comments.  In fact, I have very rarely ever posted anything about my real life experiences.  So---how you can discern that I'm misogynistic, I have no idea.  Can you tell me anything about my life?  Do you know anything about any of my relationships with any women I know?   The answer is no.  I do note, however, that to my recollection, the one time when I did do that (about running into an ex and her current beau at a bar)--seeking counsel and insight into a situation that I found confusing--you used it as an opportunity to bash, rather than offer any genuine insight, or seek to develop any understanding of the situation as it appeared to me, the person who sought insight.    And in that instance, you also made wild assumptions about that relationship that fit into your pattern of claiming misogyny, but were WAAAY off the mark.  My point is, you know  nothing about me, and I would really prefer if you stopped accusing me of misogyny and other things that you have gotten into doing.  Thanks.

[MsHeartBeat]

It's rather disturbing to come here and read this.  Shows Devineone and I were thinking along the same lines.   My thoughts were prompted by several recent dating experiences that have me shaking my head in disgust and ready to just hang it up and be single the rest of my life.  To vent my frustrations however, I wrote and posted an article just the other day called "The Top 5 Reasons Men Don't Get Laid."  It's an abbreviated version of the top 10 reasons which I am still working on, but I wanted to something up and out before the weekend.

And one of the reasons is the misogynistic, hateful, disrespectful, angry, entitled to sex attitude that some men have towards women. 

This is bad, very bad

[MsHeartBeat]

...You seem only interested in telling the women what they need to start doing and stop doing.  Guys could use some detailed instruction too.    It shouldn't just be one-sided with instruction aimed only at telling the women to "Next the playas."  What about telling the men what they need to be doing other than being playas, pimps and bad boys in words and attitudes (as attested to by the comments I posted here), and in deeds?  They need to hear that talk too.

This is certainly a good point Devineone, but I kinda have to agree with CB on this one.  Why?

Men don't do anything to women that women don't let them do.

Not only that, women need to have higher self esteem, feel more deserving of proper treatment, demand to be treated with respect, and not give their hearts over to men that do not truly and deeply love them.  If women felt deserving of that kind of devotion and treatment by men, there would be little to no baby's daddy's situations, no FWBs, no hookups and no booty calls.

Women have all the power here to affect change in their lives.  However the young women (as you pointed out) don't realize they have it, OR they don't know how to use it, OR they fold under peer pressure because they have no personal fortitude.

So if more women were strong and focused and refuses to settle for nonsense, then the pool of available free sexi and women that will take b.s. and try to form it into a committed relationship.

Women control whether or not a man gets a hook up.
Women control whether or not a man has a baby.
Women control whether or not a man has a booty call.
Women control whether or not a man has a Friend With Benefit.
Women control whether or not a man has a date.
Women control whether or not a man has a wife.
Women control whether or not a man has even a conversation with her.

Get my drift?  But if you don't accept that you have that power or are too naive to know it... well...

[devineone]

Starchild are you saying that what you said in that Pitfall thread does not apply to how you view women and dating in general?  This isn't true in you saying this:

And if he's paying for dates, guess what he's after?   BINGO!  Pucci!  Maybe not tonight, maybe not Saturday night, but oh yes, I am after it.  And if you ain't trying to give it up, I will take my date-paying for self to someone who will.  Supply and demand.  Why pay more than the going rate.
 

You're saying that you're not referring to yourself when you say "I"?    And that I've taken this all out of context?  You were just being "hypothetical and rhetorical"?  Well if that's the case, my bad then for misunderstanding your stance on how you view women based on what you've posted in that Pitfall thread.  I thought when you said "I", you were referring to yourself.  Man it's confusing. 

I'm not sure I see how what you said over there, can't be applied to the "Demise of Dating over here.  You're still posting comments about what men are thinking about when they're asking a woman out on a date.  How is that not relevant over in this topic thread?

I'm not the only poster here who "has a pattern" as you say of quoting posts from one topic into another post in an "open forum".  This happened long before I arrived by other posters and since I've been here. 
You just don't like it because I'm quoting your particular post in this case and it's not showing up in a positive light. Had I excerpted similar comments made by someone else from outside of this forum you wouldn't have been bothered by it because "you" wouldn't have been the one to have said them.

We all post things into our thread topics to make points.  We post things from other sites and take excerpts to make points.  You just don't like it because I found your remarks in that pitfall thread disgusting and disrespectful and now you're trying to flip the script and make it seem as though my action of excerpting your comments "out of context" as you are putting it is the bigger offense.  A diversionary argument, I'll grant that.

If you want to talk strictly about context, how is talking about a "woman's privates not  being special", related to Rich women dating men who make less money than they do?

How dare you sit here and have the gall to even think you know or can discern anything of my thoughts towards women based on that comment? 

I prefaced my remarks by saying "Going by their comments" and "Based on their comments", here these guys think xyz... And you did say 'I will take my date paying self... Were you not referring to yourself when you said that?  If you were not referring to yourself when you said these remarks, then who were you referring to?   You're right I don't know anything about your personal life, nor do I know you.  But I can read, and I do know what you've posted.  You chose to deliberately post in a derrogatory negative tone towards women.  You chose to take it to that level.  Now you want to get mad because I'm commenting about it.  I found it disgusting back when you posted it in the pitfall thread, "in context", I just chose not to post about it, but I was taken aback your remarks and I did find them offensive.   I didn't think, you thought of women in that way. And since you posted this, it's logical for me to think that you were posting "your own thoughts". Who else's thoughts could they have been?   I can only go by your words that you posted.  I don't need to know about your personal life to comment on "your remarks here since they are a reflection of how "you think". 

So whether I commented on your remarks "in context" over there or over here, the same message still came through loudly and clearly over there as it is over here.  It still doesn't change what you said.  I'm sure you could have, had you had chosen to, made your point without going to that level. But you did take 'it to that level' and while you may have intended for it to come across as only one way, like it or not, that's not the only message that you were sending out in your remarks.  Now you're trying to add on things to change it up a bit, but you intentionally came across the way that you did.  I as a woman found it offensive and I can speak out about it.  But you're now saying you were speaking in hypothetical terms.  OK...

the one time when I did do that (about running into an ex and her current beau at a bar)--seeking counsel and insight into a situation that I found confusing--you used it as an opportunity to bash, rather than offer any genuine insight, or seek to develop any understanding of the situation as it appeared to me, the person who sought insight

In that Insecurity thread you're referring to, it's interesting how you say I chose to bash you (I guess anyone else who had different viewpoints did as well). Is it because some posters said what you didn't want to hear so that makes us out to be bashing you.  Is that it?  I guess you weren't really looking for insight or other opinions, as you claim you were, you were just looking for someone to agree with what you were originally thinking. 
Then why ask in the first place when you didn't want to really hear other view points and were dismissive of them once they were shared?  So anyone who disagrees with 'your viewpoints and expresses their views on a question where you are asking for other posters input is bashing you now?